Comments about issue 356 (Dec. 6, 2008)

[Chuck]

Do you have a comment about what I wrote in issue 356, or my video comments? If so, please leave them here. -- Chuck
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Chuck Woodbury is the editor of RVtravel.com

[bohemian]

RV manufacturers are having a tough time of it, but I am a consumer, not a manufacturer. I just purchased a late model motorhome (not a new model) at less than 1/2 the NADA retail price. The price allowed me to pay cash and I did not have to shop for a loan.

I also purchased an '07 toad at 1/2 the market price. I paid cash for it also. "I am loving it." I saved thousands on my purchases and it has allowed me to purchase a quality motorhome that in normal times, I could not afford.

Maybe I will winter in Mexico and escape this crazy economy. I can take my new "home" and warm my bones on the beach and enjoy my RV life.
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Enjoying Fulltime Living

[Dick_B]

Re: too large RVs being built.
I wonder what kind of surveys were done to determine what size/features the likely purchaser would like?
My experience with manufacturers is that it is typically a top down organization and everyone does what their supervisor wants. What would be better is to find out what RVers want, then survey the employees to determine which is the best/most efficient way to provide that product.
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Dick_B
SunnyBrook 27FKS
Chevrolet Suburban 3/4 T tow vehicle
Equal-i-zer Hitch
One wife
Two bikes

[tumbleturn]

I believe you hit the nail on the head. I had been going to the local RV show here at the Alameda County Fairgrounds between 2001-2007. I was preparing myself to buy my new used RV that I would use for full-time use. Back then there were a lot of choices in diesel pushers in the 30-34 foot range. They became less and less as time went on. What I have seen with the RVs is the same thing I have seen in the housing industry. The builders keep building bigger and bigger. Back in the seventies, a normal size house was 1000 to 1400 square feet. 2 years ago 2000 square feet was small. And now everyone wonders why energy and commodities went sky high, although now with the recession, energy and commodities have deflated. I agree with you the RV industry is not hardly dead. We just need the Japanese to get involved and build a little smaller, more affordable and a little more fuel efficient RV. A while back, didn't you do an article or was it you were making note of a 50-foot plus 5er? It was not that long ago when very few were commenting on the excessive size of RVs. Even I settled on a 36-foot 2004 ( my original limit was 34 feet) for my full-time adventure that officially starts the day after Xmas even though I moved into it on September 24th. Yep, the economy will recover as will the RV industry minus a few of the weak and unprepared.

Mike
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As of 12/19/2008 I am a homeless unemployed bum YAHOOOO. Can you spare a dime? Currently Hanging out around Grass Valley CA

[MAGIC]

Chuck,
Yes, there will always be a market for big motorhomes and fifth wheel trailers -- for well-off full-timers and celebrities.

I don't think comments like this help you or I! Now, I'm well off because I have a Class A? All that comment does is separate the 5th wheels and class As even more

I think you've beat this horse to DEATH! DAVE
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2006 NEWMAR
MOUNTAIN AIRE
W-24 WORKHORSE
2002 SATURN TOAD
FT 09/05

[Motor31]

Smaller lighter RVs have always been around. The problem is that the public wasn't interested in buying the smallest RV on the lot, they wanted as many home amenities as they could get. The manufacturers gave them that option and the public bought them. That's why the RV manufacturers MADE money before the second half of 2007. If they didn't sell, the manufacturers would have stopped making so many large motorhomes. The RV industry does not force the consumer to buy the item, they respond to the demand of the consumer.

A previous poll on the website indicated that more than 50% (closer to 60 IIRC) of RVers responding were motorhome owners. That gives you the single reason for the majority of motorhomes being built. That's what was being bought. They didn't make them because they liked having them on the lot, they made them because that was what their customers were buying.

The RV industry is built upon one segment of the economy: it's called discretionary funds. That means folks who can afford the bills they have and have money left over for luxuries will then spend it on those luxuries. When the economy dries up, the discretionary funds for the consumer, as it started when fuel went out of sight, luxury buying declines. The same thing is happening in all aspects of the luxury or conspicuous consumption market. Jewelers are feeling the pinch as well.

Let's face it, a motorhome of any size for a part-timer is hardly a means of maintaining a slim economic profile for a consumer. It's a single-use kind of vehicle for intermittent use. I don't mean that you use the vehicle once, just that you only use the vehicle for intermittent recreation. The rest of the time that expensive engine, transmission, frame, etc., sits idle. It is not used for anything other than recreation for the part-timer.

A trailer is far less expensive and the tow vehicle can be used for other purposes other than just moving the RV. I would imagine that if the RV industry is to survive, that trailers will be the last gasp that allows it. Smaller (read lighter) trailers capable of being towed by smaller trucks/vans will be the most viable option once the economy starts to recover.
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Mike, Nancy and the Fuzzies
2005 MS 38 RL3
2001 Volvo MH (HDT)
2004 R1150RT (piggyback)
1996 Jeep Cherokee (toad)

[Travelin' A's]

You have hit on several very significant points that have bothered me for years. Your comparison to automobiles shows an aggregate stubborn mentality coming from our American transportation and RV industries.

1) We keep hearing about the "good stuff" coming out sometime in the future. Okay, we're still waiting.

I compare this same mentality to wind and solar PV products. They are selling the same very expensive, inefficient products as they were back in the 1970s. No changes there either.

2) Bigger, (with more bells and whistles) connotes quality. Only a very small percentage of wealthy RVers can afford the giant 40-footers - and the fuel to put in them.

This leaves out a majority of "campers" who want quality in their smaller units because it is well known that manufacturers of smaller units hedge on quality by putting in the cheapest parts and use the lowest waged assembly line workers they can get by with.

I've had both Fleetwood and Keystone middle-value products and all of them were designed and assembled to make it only as far as the dealer's showroom. Once they are paid for and driven away, you just cross your fingers that something doesn't fail on your way home.

3) Value is in the eye of the marketing division only. The moment you pay for their "valuable" product, they and the dealers no longer honor that same value.

At one RV trade show, I bought a model right off the showroom floor. I went to the same show one year later, talked to the same salesman and said I wanted to buy the newer year's identical same model. For my one- year old model, he offered me one half of what I paid as a trade-in.

4) "GM has been a stupid company for decades"? Well, maybe not too stupid. They have been deceptively clever. They prey on our gullibility.

The stupidity (and I'm asking for it here) is the American public's complacency and stubborn loyalty to brand name. We are also very spoiled to the idea of low priced fuel - until this past summer. Europeans have been paying high prices for gas for decades. In 1968 when I was there, a liter (1/4th a gallon) was 28 cents. That equates to $1.12 a gallon. We were paying about 35 cents for a gallon.

5) Timing? Boy, you couldn't be more right about timing. Do they think we are idiots? Do they really believe we are going to mass purchase big guzzlers when we can barely afford to fuel up just our cars so we can still drive to work?

One last thing. Quality assurance of parts and quality of labor in the RV industry has been suspect for as long as I can remember. The RVIA may mean well, but it seems that their standards favor the industry and the so-called authorized repair shops. Their idea of cutting costs is cutting quality.

There is very little standard for quality from manufacturer to manufacturer and from shop to shop. They sure don't seem to respect us paying customers. Just build it crappier, repair it shoddier and put a ridiculous warranty on it that always favors them.

[lowe_mary]

You singled out GM of the big three auto makers but sorry, it is Chrysler and Ford as well, although Ford has been coming out with some more efficient vehicles the past couple years. However, if I'm not mistaken, all three are looking for a "bailout."
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Mary

[maddog76]

Chuck,

I heartily disagree with your assertion that GM was "...stupid for decades..." because it failed to build what the public wanted. That statement defies the basic economic law of supply and demand. If the American public did not want huge, gas-guzzling SUVs, then why did they buy them? More fuel efficient alternatives have been around for years. Had Americans stopped purchasing Detroit gas guzzlers before they felt the pain in their purses and wallets, the Big 3 would have stopped producing them. But the sad fact is that for decades we Americans have demonstrated an appalling lack of concern for the environment and for the conservation of limited resources; we just don't care until it affects us personally. The automakers responded accordingly.

Understand that I am no fan of the Big 3--they have failed to innovate and it will take them a decade to catch up with the Asian and European automakers. But are they solely responsible for the mess we find ourselves in now? No way. The American consumer is equally to blame.

Your other comments suggest that Class A motorhomes should become a thing of the past. So are you saying that full-time RVing should end for all but the rich and famous? It sounds as though you think that because you are driving a 24-foot, fuel efficient motorhome, that the rest of us should fall in line and follow your lead. But to "Think Small" is not solely about the size of your car or your motorhome; it's about how you use what you have, large or small.

Scott
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Scott & Deborah Haines
2004 Class C--Winnebago Minnie, 30'

[Bo Walker]

We are quite content with our older motorhome. I would like to have a newer one but it isn't necessary. I am glad bigger and nicer ones are available to those who can afford them. It doesn't make me jealous to see others enjoying their brand-new pusher.
I am not willing to downsize. I don't think it is necessary for me at this time. If I have to, I will RV less rather than give in to a smaller RV.
I drive a class A motorhome by choice. I like the 5th wheels and class Cs others enjoy, but I still want my class A motorhome. I tow a vehicle with the motorhome that gets reasonable gas mileage. It's my preference. I am no better than the folks who drive and enjoy the biggest highest priced diesel pushers available.
Oh the bail-out: I don't care at all if the big 3 don't make a vehicle for a year or two. They got themselves into this trouble. Let them figure it out. We have to figure it out for ourselves and most of us don't make $73+ an hour. The sad employees are having to make do with only $400 a week unemployment. I know a few people who consider themselves middle class who take home no more than $400 a week.
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Bo & Jan RVing for fun

[motojavaphil]

Hi Chuck,

I seriously do not know the answer to this one and that is from someone the DW says thinks he knows everything . I do know repair shops are busy and I see a lot of big RVs out there. The money, though tighter, is there. Fuel prices are lower and the Boomers are booming. They are retiring in a time of deflation, whatever that is. Things have happened in the past year or so that I have never seen or thought possible. Many icons I grew up with are gone or going. I really do not know where or how it will shake out if it does at all. We have a 40-foot rig, get 9 to 10 mpg and are very comfortable. As a fulltimer, I have no desire to be in a smaller rig and am not wealthy. Oh well, whatever happens is out of my control.
Phil
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Phil and Carol
2000 Beaver Patriot
2007 Hummer H3
2007 BMW K1200R
US Army Retired
http://motokoffee.com/
May The Wind Always Be At Your Back

[jjdelpozo]

Well now, interesting comments.

We purchased a used Class A but it wasn't from a so called 'Main Line" builder. It was a Tiffin, a 2 year-old unit for $65K when it was valued by NADA at over $110K. It is built extremely well. I'd put it up against anything from the so called "Main Line Builders." We intend to keep the thing. Due to modifications, we are getting 10 to 12 mpg (with wife driving! I have a heavy right foot!). We travel whenever the mood hits, be it in 6 months or 6 times a month, depending upon grandkids.

As for the bailout, consider what the unions have done: $73.00 to $76.00 an hour for installing the right front wheel? There was a time for unions but it hasn't been for the last 20 years. I lost my shorts several times due to unions and their corruption. Therefore I have no sympathy.

It's sad that in the late 70s and the early 80s, the auto industry did in fact build vehicles with high fuel mileage, but no one wanted them. Americans wanted HORSEPOWER and BIG autos. They were delivered as was the case for the current SUVs. The industry works off of marketing research. They built what we, the public, wanted. I suppose that also goes for the RV industry to a point. They will always build something they think we want but when it doesn't sell, they quit.

RVing will be around for quite a while, lots of changes perhaps, but it will still be there. Americans are a traveling society, always have been and always will be. I used to RV with a 1930 Model A pick-up and a tent. Now it's a 2004 Tiffin Open Road. I started when I was 15 and now I'm 62. Perhaps when I'm 82 years old, things will be different.

Jon in Texas

[elh3946]

[thewbje]

I disagree with the trend to downsize RVs carte blanche. This is just another short-lived trend that has lemmings jumping on the bandwagon. Look at gas prices today at $1.50 a gallon! These smaller RVs were designed a year ago when gas was $3.25. There will always be a market for large RVs, especially for full- or nearly full-timers and large families.
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2006 F-350 Diesel (stay close to a dealer!!)
2004 32 ft. Hol. Rambler Presidential

[retired and happy]

We have a 37-foot motorhome. It is our third one and all have been used. We think we NEED a large motorhome. We have five special needs children who need to have special medical equipment running while we travel. If we travel more than a couple hours from home, we MUST have the equipment. If we are closer, we can get by with oxygen tanks and battery-powered monitors. We are NOT wealthy. When this motorhome declines, we will likely have to curtail our travel. Our trips for the kids to Disney will be a thing of the past. Even visits to relatives will be severely limited. We cannot reasonably use a travel trailer or 5er because these kids are getting too big to move into and out of back row seats of a tow vehicle.

I agree that most of the motorhomes built today are more than what is needed by much of the traveling public. I would like to see simpler, safe, reliable, and more affordable vehicles that families such as ours could use and afford. That does not mean shorter or with less accommodations. It must be serviceable for the needs of the traveling public. Someone in the industry MUST be listening. Anyone? Hello? Anyone?
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Ken
Judy and our Special Angels
1996 37' Itasca Suncruiser
6x12 cargo trailer
2003 EZGO golf Cart