By Mike Gast
Last spring, I wrote an article about how little strings of computer code called “bots” were beating you to the punch when you’re trying to reserve an RV site at popular camping destinations. Well, there’s another culprit out there stealing your next camping opportunity, and this time it’s your fellow campers.
Reservation websites like Recreation.gov, the official booking site for many public facilities, are facing an increase in “phantom” reservations. Driven by the massive increase in campers this summer and the accompanying increase in competition for sites, some campers have apparently taken to securing reservations at several popular locations for the same day and then only using one. The others are left empty for the night.
Phantom reservations are most prevalent at public campgrounds that charge far less per night than most private parks. Greedy campers are grabbing up as many sites as they can on a given day, then waiting until the day of their trip to decide which one to use without canceling the rest.
Campground hosts and park concessionaires are held hostage by the practice. They can’t re-rent the sites since there is a fully paid reservation for that day on the books that they must honor. After all, the fee has been paid and will be forfeited if nobody shows.
That doesn’t help the desperate camper who arrives at a park late at night and sees several empty sites – all unavailable to them – and wonders, “What’s going on?”
Campers making phantom reservations seem more than willing to take the monetary loss of a few $16-a-night reservations and fees in exchange for the luxury of having a menu of campground choices available to them when it’s time to get the RV rolling.
Janelle Smith handles public information for Recreation.gov, a government service for federal agencies and local land managers use to assist in handling visitation. Smith said Recreation.gov just provides the technology for government agencies and concessionaires who run the campgrounds, and has nothing to do with setting registration fee rates or policies. “All of that is managed locally through the agencies,” she said.
The phantom booking problem might be being exacerbated by the fact that some – but not all – Recreation.gov campgrounds operate on a 6-month booking window for sites. For some accommodations, the window can be extended out a full year, Smith said.
Here’s what it currently says on Recreation.gov’s website regarding its rules for reservation no-shows:
No-Shows
- Overnight and Day-Use Facilities: A no-show customer is one who does not arrive at a campground and does not cancel the reservation by check-out time on the day after the scheduled arrival date (or for day-use facilities, by check-in time the day of arrival). Staff will hold a campsite until check-out time on the day following the arrival date and will hold group day-use facilities until check-in time on the arrival date.
- Fees: No-shows are assessed $20.00 service fee and forfeit the first night’s recreation fee for a campsite or forfeit the entire day-use fee for a day-use facility.
Reservation websites like Recreation.gov are particularly vulnerable since they often charge far less per site than private campgrounds. A quick check of a non-electric RV site at the Rio Grande Village Campground at Big Bend National Park in Texas showed it was going for about $16 a night. Even with the $20 no-show service fee, a $36 total cost isn’t beyond the reach of unscrupulous campers who want to keep their camping options open. Smith also noted that the fees charged for reservations can vary slightly depending on if the reservation was made online or through a call center, and also depends on the type of site (a regular campsite vs. a back country site, for instance).
Recreation.gov charges a $10 fee for any reservation changes or cancellations made more than a day prior to arrival. If you try to cancel within a day of arrival or on the day of arrival, you will be charged the $10 change fee as well as forfeit the first night’s camping fees and any other service fees. So, by just not showing up and not canceling, campers are only losing roughly an additional $10 or so, and they keep their options open until the very last minute.
Private campgrounds with significantly higher site fees typically have strict cancellation policies that set a time window (usually 24 to 48 hours) for cancellations in order for campers to avoid being charged either a one-night forfeiture of fees, or sometimes the fees for the entire stay. Those policies can get expensive in a hurry for the reservation “phantoms,” and it’s likely those policies are working to keep the number of phantom reservations down at private campgrounds.
Is it up to the campgrounds and reservation sites to fix the problem? Sure. But motivation is low, since the sites are paid for regardless if anybody shows up. They’d likely love to charge their cancellation fees, keep that first night’s fee for the no-show and still be able to re-sell the site. But, that’s often not the way it works out.
The real losers are those RVers without reservations who show up and see a plethora of empty sites waiting for the phantoms who will never show.
Recreation.gov’s Smith does offer a bit of advice for RVers searching for sites … don’t follow the crowds.
“I’d suggest that campers get a feel for the great lesser-known places that can still offer them a similar outdoor experience,” she said. “There are great places out there that I know still have sites available, even on a weekend. They just aren’t inside those super-popular places like Yosemite National Park.”
So, RVtravel.com readers, have you run into any “phantoms” on your campground trips yet?
##RVT1013b
Well I’m not concerned about people “stealing” sites. They paid for it and if they end up choosing to stay there, it’s their right. It’s only one night if they don’t show and the example you gave at Big Bend is dry camping. All the COE and NFS campgrounds with hookups are in the $25-35 range now, sadly.
We have had no trouble finding campsites. If we plan early enough (we don’t ever plan a whole year out unless we are heading to an extremely popular destination) we get what we seek. Even got Grand Canyon Trailer Village sites only less than 3 months advance, for last May.
If places we want are booked, we just have to be flexible.
But, for all that good advice, it still does not address the very rude and totally selfish behavior of those who are booking and then no-showing w/out cancelling, basically doing a big single-finger salute to all other campers.
And that is the real crux of the matter in this article.
Suggestions on fixing and preventing that?
The only possible defense is for people on long trips who are not sure of the distance they will reach in a day. Multiple options give them somewhat of a guarantee that they won’t get stranded on a bad weather or bad traffic day of travel. However there is no excuse for not cancelling the duplicate sites as soon as possible so another camper can grab the space at the last minute.
That’s the problem with today’s “ME” society, nobody thinks about anybody but themselves.
Dead on. Stop thinking about only yourself and think about someone else who might have a DEF Head EMERGENCY AND JUST TRYING TO GET OFF THE SIDE OF THE ROAD. I couldn’t even respond to Julie’s comment her “rights”.
Sorry, no defence here. I have planned and booked out a six month trip this winter involving 20 or so different camping options. ZERO double booking. 100% selfish behaviour if someone does this.
This is a huge problem for government run campgrounds that are popular and/or in urban areas. Thank you for the article.
18 months ago I emailed the county commissioners for Palm Beach County Florida ref: John Prince Park Campground. No response. No policy change to date.
I had reserved and paid for my site for 14 days while my sister was getting cancer treatment. My wife and I decided to leave after a couple of days because my sister was tranfered to a facility on the west coast.
I was cool with the no refund policy but wanted to donate my site to a veteran or first responder, active duty or retired. The office personnel said their policy would not allow it. This is a great park and the people that work there are awesome. They were as frustrated as I was. So many sites just sit there empty but reserved throughout the entire year
I explained to the politicians in my email about putting their “support the ….” rhetoric into real action. I guess it didnt make an inpact.
It’s not about the Donation. It’s the people that would reserve for someone else, a reseller. People have abused this in the past so everyone suffers.
That is because you didn’t send the politicians a check along with your suggestion.
I would think it would be feasible for them to program the recreation.com system to spot and prevent multiple bookings from the same name and address. Or to penalize no-shows with greater penalties, or blacklist them for a period of time. How can we as campers motivate them to find a solution? A letter writing campaign (per email) led by RVTravel.com? Where do we write to?
We just returned from a week in Pigeon Forge, TN. We had no problem getting reservations for Thursday through Wednesday. We stayed at Riveredge campground which started filling up Friday PM until Sunday. By noon Sunday it had emptied out to about half capacity. I think the overcrowding we hear about is mainly the people who are still working and have children in school. The retired folks shouldn’t have much trouble if you’re willing to travel during the week. I guess we were fortunate to have raised our families by the 90s before the world went crazy.
its more than a 1 day problem. We arrived at a COE campground on Friday for a 7 day stay. In our loop of 30 sites, 2 were empty with reservation check out tags for the 15 (Sunday). On Saturday there was still no one there. The tags came down. But who is going to want to drive to a campground an hr away, set up and stay 1 night? And who is going to know that they even can, unless you are looking every day for openings. If someone wanted to camp this weekend they would have given up by noon on Friday for any hope of an empty site because no one canceled a reservation. This is costing not only revenue but payroll expenses, someone is going to have to log these no shows, someone has to input a cancellation and fees associated. Over the course of a year these expenses can add up and we all lose because the campground cannot pay for a needed repair due to budgeting.
Common courtesy flew out the window a long time ago.
Shame on those who practice this reservation hack! If your ok with this selfish behavior, shame on you too. You are probably one of the folks that do this.
I agree… this is a sad reminder of life in America today and the disregard for your fellow man. People need not be so greedy… use only what you can.
People who book multiple parks for the same day and then never check in to those sites should be banned from the parks. Since it’s all computerized and we’re making the reservations online it shouldn’t be hard for the camp host to tag the reservation as a No-Show. After 2 consecutive no-shows, no-cancels the person should be banned from making reservations in the future. The other option would require the person booking to enter the License Plate of the camper/RV wen booking. Once a License Plate is entered then any other attempts to book at other site will be rejected as the plate is already booked and assigned to another park. If a person attempts to try and bypass the system by jumbling the plate and still booking multiple parks when they attempt to check if the plate does not match then they are rejected entry only if the real tag number was also booked at another park for the same date.
This sounds like a terrific solution! With computerized booking, there’s no reason why the software can’t be updated to include such safeguards. Problem is, such changes to the code require $ and risk bugs… At least being able to collect cancellation fees PLUS add a new RVer into the site means extra money. Even a $10 cancellation fee adds up over time. And being able to stop people from doing this would benefit everyone. These days, there’s just too much rewarding of bad behavior going on in general, and letting people continue to do this is essentially rewarding them.
Part of the problem is that sites aren’t opened up when there are No Shows. We saw this at two different National Forest Service Campgrounds this summer. On weekdays, one of the campgrounds we stayed at was practically empty even though there were reservation tags on most of the posts. It comes down to the camp hosts not doing their job. They could have gone around and pulled the tags on “No show” sites. Rules meaning nothing if they aren’t enforced.
Wrong .. Most camp hosts have oversight by well paid contractors that were put on place by those in power that are so keen to privatize government operations. The hosts have no say in the policies of their bosses.
I’m not a computer wiz, but it seems that the problem of “phantom” campers could be partially (though not completely) eliminated by a program where the computer would check for duplicate tag numbers and dates reserved before allowing a second reservation for the same date/tag number, disallow the reservation, and generate a notice to the requester of the refusal.
I’m no computer wiz either. But I think recreation.gov should accept some responsibility for the problem. Hire a software engineer to modify the reservation system to automatically cancel duplicate reservations based on credit card numbers or tag numbers. Stop wringing your hands and find a solution.
“I’m Glenn from XXXX where we identify problems and embrace solutions.”
I have seen other sites that do this
Yes! I totally agree that would work.
I agree that programming the reservation system to search for possible duplicate or “phantom” reservations could help tremendously!
Absolutely this could be done. And money from cancellation fees plus re-booking fees could help cover the cost of the software update. (I worked in a Web company where we developed software. Yes, this could be done — far short of rocket science to do it, too.)
Those license plate checks and other ideas are good. But there is no incentive for the camp “host” to honor the rules. What do they care? The site is paid for and now they have less work to do. Most of them are voluntary non-paid camp hosts getting free room and board for little work.
The other shortage issue is a lot of private parks set aside 30-40% of the spaces for full timers. They can stay up to 6 months or so and then have to pull out for 24 hours. The park that ignores this will be reclassified at a trailer park at that point.
Will there be lazy camp hosts? I’m sure there will be. However the incentive is Camp Hosts caught not playing by the rules will be removed from their duties and not allowed to return to any other Fed/Govt run campground. I know a lot of them are not paid, however they do get free campsites and rely on those free sites. So the incentive is do your job right or GTFO and don’t come back.
You,sir, need to be a camp host for a few weeks.
For the honor of a site ( no “board, you could deal with folks who have high expectations for keeping rules, partying through the night or teach me how to set up my brand new camp gear.
Maybe Recreation.Gov and Reserve America could track cancellations for people that don’t mind losing money by cancelling multiple reservations and then charge a stiff penalty to use their service. Just a thought, I’ve never encountered that issue. If what I want isn’t available I just keep looking.
Go back to all “walk up” only. Yes, it will be a bit crazy hunting for a site between 11 AM and 12 PM and the park hosts will be very busy collecting fees. If you arrive late, you are welcome to park in the overflow until the next morning when you can enter the fray. Camping is an adventure — let’s keep it that way!
Double Ditto …
Big data coud build a profile on these campers and after so many no shows, Double or Triple their reservation fees with out hurting the normal campers trying to get a site for the night. There also needs to be a readily accessible way to reach the specific campground at all hours to explain your situation. I once had to delay my arrival by one day when I spent the night along side the road with a broken fan belt I got fixed the next day. Campground was very understanding and held my reservations.
Wow – what a bunch of Karens! What is being described in this article is someone who pays for a service, then never uses the service. To me, its a “win” for the campground since the camper never show, no water, no electricity, etc., but getting paid.
I think the author’s main observation was in the form of a Freudian slip: The real losers are those RVers without reservations who show up and see a plethora of empty sites waiting for the phantoms who will never show. Someone who just wants a site to be available when they are ready to camp is a loser. In reading this newsletter it seems everyone wants the “good ole days” when they could just go anywhere and get a site without reservations. That ship has sailed.
My thoughts exactly. If you choose to ignore the way things work in today’s camping environment (Make Reservations!), then you’ve made your own adult decision to be a loser! Whining about it when you get somewhere and can’t get a site is just pathetic. I would love to see things work like they did in the 1950’s too, (or even 2000 for that matter!), but since that’s not going to happen, you learn to deal with things as they are.
Nobody is saying they want things to return to the early days. Of course with more campers plans need to be make, there’s no such thing as last minute any more and I think more if not all people get that. Personally I plan all my camping trips well over a year out, 2022 has been planned and all I need to do is make the reservations when it’s time and part of 2023 is in the books already as well. The problem comes from when Ma and Pa Kettle book multiple parks for the same night, there’s simply no need to do that. Sure the parks are making their money but you’re screwing people out of grabbing a site because you don’t know where you want to be on a particular date so you book them all. Almost like the morons that panic bought all the TP in 2020, because we all know that Scott tissue is the magic bullet to defeat Covid.. We’ve also personally witnessed people that book their site as well as the site to either side of them so they have no neighbors while camping. That to me is rather rude, if you don’t want people camping next to you then don’t F’n camp. Either that or go old school and hike you rear end into the woods and pitch a tent.
The supposed win for the campground is a loss for every person who tries to book a campsite that they intend to actually use. The practice greatly reduces the number of campsites available to reserve.
BS! we have traveled the country for 20 years. We reserve ahead only at destinations with known schedules – usually other people’s. I don’t remember a night that I couldn’t get a site without reserving less than a day ahead. We just came off the road from a three month trip across the country with very few advance reservations because we didn’t know where we were headed when. I certainly stay away from crowded destinations. When we went to Yellowstone we stayed in a beautiful NFS park first come first served just outside the West Entrance. I have no proof that the empty sites I have seen were booked by ghost campers, but there certainly some empty sites out there.
Several good solutions have been proposed in previous comments so this is a problem with several easy solutions. The problem is the campgrounds have little motivation to find or implement these solutions, so until that happens don’t expect campers who double booking or fail to cancel to stop that practice.
In a recent RV forum discussion about campers who fail to cancel when they know in advance they will not use the site, I was surprised to read that many feel that since they paid for a site it’s theirs, regardless of the fact that others may wish to use the site if they had had the courtesy to cancel. In that same forum discussion one commenter suggested that the opportunity to cancel was difficult is some locations due to poor cellular connectivity. While this may be true, locations with no connectivity are becoming few and far between.
So until some penality is instituted I wouldn’t expect camgrounds with reserved but unused sites to see a solution to this issue.
“Recreation.gov’s Smith does offer a bit of advice for RVers searching for sites … don’t follow the crowds.”
This is obvious good advice. Problem is, if you don’t get a site right at the Grand Canyon, then you can’t tell anyone you WERE at the Grand Canyon. You can only say you stayed near the Grand Canyon. We can’t have that! I’m sure glad we made the National Park western circuit years ago before the craziness started.
Just camped a couple of nights at a state park — the only 2 sites available for those days. There was a prime waterfront site that remained empty the 3 days we were there, although it was marked as reserved in the reservation system.
We stay at a first come first serve RV park. You make a reservation but it is not complete until you arrive at the park and pick a site. If you have a reservation and it’s almost full, you get what’s left if you can fit into it! If not, too bad. Perfect park, directly on the beach in CA, low cost, full hookups! You just have to get there before it fills up! And we do!
I’ve been seeing this (and griping about it) for 5 years or more here in the North West. There are apparently many folks wealthy enough and full of love for themselves to do this.
In my opinion this whole privatization of public campgrounds through the use of mega campground management companies and the resulting reservation system are an abomination.
We all know the parties responsible for selling off the rights to public recreation under the guise of “saving the taxpayers money” (with a little push in the right direction by the lobbyists).
We just finished a 60 day trip with many Recreation.gov reservations. Twice our plans changed and I cancelled reservations. The $10 fee was deducted from our refund, not an additional fee charged.
Using plate numbers and last names, they can keep a pattern history on campers. If they abuse the stays, they pay a penalty. Like a 3 strike rule for the year. The penalty fee loss needs to be more. How much are you willing to lose if you abuse the rules? An an acknowledge e-mail a week before would cut done on some problems.
But what about those who have real legitimate reasons to cancel? How do you weed the good from the bad and not hurt those who are not phantoms and have legitimate reasons to cancel? And cannot afford the financial loss? I’m not sure what the answer is….
Had to cancel my reservations in Northern California due to fires.
Well all of this stuff and 2 dog attacks in 2 months that has left my wife with permanent disabilities has made it so we are selling our 2001 Country Coach magna and we are retiring in mexico… they have a lower murder rate and rape rate then the US. Also the first dog attack owner got a $40 fine is all.. America is done dogs have more rights then Vets do Herr now.
2nd rant about dogs… there are no bad dogs, only bad humans. Hasta la vista lol Don’t let the door smack you on your backside.
2A fix. Shoot the dog.
I know this is a very old fashioned thought but what if the campgrounds just had someone call each camper to verify that they were coming & they could verify how many sites that person needed. Plans do change & some people are needing a few bucks right now. People could even do that job from home or their RV. In fact, if anyone wants to hire me to do it for them let me know.))
One more tidbit:
Both ‘Recreation.gov and ReserveAmerica’ are private companies owned by Booz Allen Hamilton. They don’t pay the government for the right to bank our money. Money which used to go into the forest service and state an national parks funding program.
Are you saying the Park Service gets none of the reservation dollars?
I stayed at Seminole Canyon State Park a couple years back, all of the sites were booked so the accommodating Rangers let me stay over night in the day camping area, with a few others that were drive ins also. That evening only one of the several booked spots actually filled, the next morning , still just that one. These “fellow RV’ers” reserved the spots but didn’t bother to cancel when their plans changed. Lousy night, “fellow RV’er next to me had a barking dog, the more it barked the more the “fellow RV’er” would say “your just a happy little bug today, aren’t you my precious” over and over, the more she said it, the more the dog barked. Oblivious to the fact that other “fellow RV’ers” around her may not want to hear a barking dog when they are sitting out in the evening trying to enjoy the peaceful , relaxing & wonderful music mother nature creates.
Sadly, this is why we prefer private parks — managers and owners generally have so much at stake they make sure RVers and their pets follow the rules.
I would like to see the entire reservation paid in advance and not refunded if the camper does not show up and does not cancel three days in advance. And their name recorded and repeat offenders charged a service fee.
I agree, to an extent. We canceled reservations twice recently, once due to illness that made me unable to travel. The 2nd, on the way to our “makeup” trip (from the 1st cancellation), we were in an accident (not our fault) that disabled our rig & put her in the repair shop. We lost almost 3 weeks of vacation time AND could have lost a good deal of money if not for the consideration of those who handled our cancellations. If a 3-day advance cancellation rule was followed, through no fault of our own, we would have lost the equivalent of 18 nights of camping. Financially (& otherwise) that would be a huge loss for many campers. Your idea, while understandable, could end many campers’ ability to get out again in a season. Not everyone (including us) has that kind of disposable income. If a camper can afford to be a no show or a “phantom,” I doubt higher fees will stop them.
So sorry that happened to you! Nothing in a stricter system would prevent you from being able to contact the property, provide some evidence of your misfortune, and have your case reviewed, right? We’ve had our share of misfortunes on the road (okay, that’s a kind word for it), and have appreciated RV parks making adjustments to help us out. That could still happen with a stricter cancellation policy.
Best idea so far!!
The biggest reason we are moving to mexico is dogs and their owners. We have been told if a dog jumps on you aggressively it’s not against the law but if a human were to jump on you that you they go to jail for assault. So just get a dog muzzle it and then it can’t bite and let it loose on anyone you want… cops can’t do crap…. this is not the America I went to war for…. dogs have more rights then humans….
And it’s going to be better in Mexico…
Go look at the data. The central mesa nw of mexico city has less murders per 1k people then America…. and same with rapes. And I stop drinking our municipal water in the USA years ago. I am x LE myself… DOJ worked with the worst offenders… first world trade center bombers… cartel leaders… so I know when things are bad and this booking and not using lots fits in with the massive dog problem and people being Jerks all over the USA. Every one thinks only of themselves and not how they effect others…. won’t be any worse in mexico and I live on less then half the cost.
There are no bad dogs, only bad human beings. After 28 years in law enforcement in California, “Dogs, Because People Suck” Nice completely off topic rant you have though… Have fun in Mexico lma o.
Not off topic… it’s the I only think of myself attitude that makes all of these problems. The average American never thinks about how there actions effect others. Dog owners are the best example for RVers. And sorry but some breeds are just to naturally violent to be in a civil society. Sure 1 in 10 of therr owners might be able to control them but the rest are just bombs waiting to go off and ruin a humans life in the process.
How does the author know that people are making multiple reservations for the same night in the same campground?
I don’t see many motivations to do that. Maybe booking the best available site, then later on a better site becomes available and it’s too much trouble to cancel the first one. Maybe they booked a second site for their adult kids just in case the kids could come.
Without proof of the authors premise, I suspect the main issue is people changing their plans and not canceling.
Well said. Maybe a tempest in a teapot. A startling headline to catch readers attention. I do like Karels $100 first night idea.
I was thinking the same thing. No shows are obviously a problem but I doubt very many campers are actually reserving multiple sites on the same days
I recently saw a person doing just this. She offered up a reserved site for a holiday weekend because she had booked 3 different places, “in case the weather wasn’t great”. She had a spot on the coast and 2 in the mountains, and openly offered to a Nor Cal Camping group the 2 “reject” sites once her family made a final decision.
That was the point of my post but it is clear that many think there are people intentionally reserving and paying for multiple sites but not bothering to cancel. Maybe if the campgrounds refunded most/all of the fee if a reservation was canceled in advance (as motels do) this “theft of campsite” would not be happening.
Irv, phantom campers aren’t reserving multiple sites at the same campground for the same night. They are booking sites at multiple campgrounds for the same night. They then pick the campground they want the day of their trip and don’t cancel the rest. That’s the issue. It could also be as simple as a camper making a single reservation months in advance, and then not bothering to cancel when their plans change since the penalty isn’t that great. That is what this story is about, not multiple reservations on the same campground for the same night.
I have an idea that might work: Charge a much higher price for a pre-paid reservation – say $100 for first night. Then guaranty a $95 refund at time of check-out. If a camper doesn’t show then they are charged the full $100. It would put a big dent in Phantom campers and yet not penalize the honest campers with increased fees. Just a thought.
That sounds good.
I had the same idea…you expressed it well. It will keep the honest honest. and the dishonest out.
SUPER GREAT IDEA Karel, hopefully someone in charge will adopt your idea and stop these greedy idiots from continuing this un-American practice!!!!!!!
Great idea!
Great idea. The owner of an RV park where we stay every year charges us a $100 deposit, which we lose if we cancel; it’s applied to the cost of our stay when we show up.
We have a large problem with the state campgrounds here in Florida in the winter time with the Snow Birds. They work around the system by booking the max amount of days in one name then change to another, filling up the camp grounds. Full time residents of Florida are left with sites that are not booked. There is no reason why state residents are not given a priority for the booking of state parks camp sites. After all we are the ones who pay the taxes that support these parks.
Paul, that is true in florida and it is awful. Prevents us Floridians from enjoying our state parks when the weather is nice and cool. Who wants to go camping in florida when 90° or more. Can’t even sit out by a fire!
The losers to this practice of multiple bookings of sites are not just the late, no reservation arrivers. The practice also greatly reduces the possibility of finding a site to reserve. There needs to be a prohibitive fee for no-shows, to discourage this selfish practice. I hope someone from recreation.gov is reading this article.
Reserve America is a scourge on honest RVr’s just trying to reserve a nice site, this has been going on for far too long and it’s getting worse.
There should be a rule that after the second no show the violators are banned from all future use of the park systems. These selfish folks need to be prevented from blocking legitimate campers from enjoying the state and National parks.
Some campgrounds release the site by 8pm if a camper doesn’t show or call to say they will be later then that time, high is a great idea..
ReserveCalifornia says in it’s rules that you have until the day after your reservation started, by noon to show up and unless you call, your site will be released to someone else. They don’t seem to practice it, though. We camped for a week with a beach site across from us that stayed empty. When I asked the ranger I was told it was reserved. This was before the Covid precautions.
I believe that this is happening because the reservation system locks people out, not in. Half of sites should be walk in with a small overflow parking area if necessary. By evening all sites will be filled and it leaves the possibility of spontaneous routing.
I find it hard to believe that in this day of computers the reservation sites cannot pick up the fact that someone has reserved several campgrounds for the same time period. Once the name/address or whatever is entered it should not accept any more reservations for a different campground. They should also have a time deadline to check in or you lose it without a phone call.
Lose without a phone call good idea.
I don’t understand why they can’t figure out who’s doing it and ban them from being able to rent anymore sites for at least 3 years the first offense and permanent ban the second… This would put a stop to it…😤🤬🧟♂️🤦🏽♂️🤯
They can if they choose to red flag and reservations that show double or more the same days at different locations. System can reject all with a notification to the renter. Would show up error and why. Then forced to select their one choice. So the question is why is not the gov choosing to use the whole system. And since it is pay in advance it can check via payment method and again give error notice based on that information instead of name. This eliminates someone else trying to bookbseveral as well. Technology is there is has to be used and if not all there the program can be tweaked to do so.
I agree Skip,the system is there so why not use it.
Obviously your NOT a business owner! Who in their right mind, wouldn’t allow a customer to pay for a product they sell, then tell you, the business owner to “keep it”? I would definitely try to find something they would “take”, but in the end if they didn’t want to it’s inventory I don’t have to buy again. Economics 101…… same thing the campground owners are using.
As noted, there is no motivation on part of campgrounds since they get their $$ either way.
However, the technology is certainly able to restrict someone making a reservation (in the SAME system) for different places on the same date. Just need an identifier such as license plate number, driver’s license number, etc. Then if someone tried to duplicate a date, the system would pop up an alert “reservations already made for that date, would you like to cancel?”
Again…there must be a motivation on the part of those behind the systems…not just those using them.
The trick is to reserve in early season the site you want later, for two full weeks. Then as the 10-13th day rolls around, two or three nights before the next window opens, late at night, cancel your reservation and rer-reserve from the new forward date. If you choose to maximize, people waiting til the next morning to try their luck will notice what wasn’t reserved suddenly is, and call it in. This way, after spending $18 each round, you will own the site. It’s worth the $200 extra. Switch credit cards, owners, as if the govt catches in a ban could result.
Related sort of – We were going to attend the Huntsville, AL Hamfest show, so back in May, made reservations for US Space Camp RV. Then the delta variant hit, and we have changed out minds. I did in fact, contact campground and go through channels to cancel this reservation. I was charged one night cancellation fee, that is fine. So, folks, please cancel those reservations you make and are not going to keep. This is a finite resource, because so many people are anti-rv. Yeah, I get the wreck of an 32 year old RV sitting along the street, however, most if not 90% of them are newer and kept in excellent condition. Please do not ruin further this lifestyle, even for those of us who only have a limited number of days available to use it.
At the very least, you would think the system should or could automatically cancel all of the reservations not being used as soon as one of the reservations is activated. In other words once the check into one campsite it cancels the other campsites they have reserved for the same time.
I know from personal experience this goes on in Florida at a popular State park campground.
We’ve simply stopped going to Florida because of it.
The surrounding restaurants grocery stores Gas stations and other business are losing my money because of this.
Identify & destroy!
That’s the times we live in, greed, cheat, NO integrity.
Just kidding on my opening line……..
No you got it right with the first line.
I think this could be solved by using the vehicle tag number (not the ‘toad’) instead of the name(s) of the person reserving. Then the system could reject that tag number for two location reservations on the same date. I have seen and heard them brag about even using their pet’s names to make multiple reservations.
I agree!
Another good approach, Christina.
There’s only a few big systems, recreation.gov, campspot, reserve america. When you no-show, you should be locked out of the system for say 2 months for a first time, 12 months for a second time, permanently for a third time. If each of those 3 big ones did that, it would severely limit them trying to reserve in the future. And do it based on their home address, or tow vehicle/trailer/motorhome plate number.
JESSE.., THAT’S A GREAT IDEA! I’m sure I may be speaking for many when I say: We are fed up with the massive influx (over last 9-12 months) of those who “think” they are RV’ers, creating so many problems for honest, appreciative RV’ers. Making reservations with no honest intent of staying there and “keeping the field open”. Paid for or not. If you reserve.., be there. If you pay and don’t show up, continually( withOUT good cause) I think it seems fair to “lock them out” for each time repeated.Or, charge a hefty fee for a non-justifiable, PROVABLE No-Show. Just my opinion.
So…….your a “REAL RV’er”? What’s a “fake rv’er” look like?…… just for reference.
Bravo….
So…. If a person chooses to pay for 3 sites, but only uses 1. (Even though they paid for all 3) They should be punished? So…. If I reserve 2 sites, and only use 1, You would be “happier” if I stopped by, and thru a tent up (even though nobody will be in it) to make it look like I was using it? That’s just poor sportsmanship in my eyes. Everyone is capable of making reservations 6 months out like I do. (Even though I don’t….. just playing the devils advocate)
Are you a full timer? Recreational camping and full time is different. You go home, while a full timer is just trying to eat and sleep for the night. No it is not your problem, but it is the right thing to do. And the people arent reserving 3 sites at the same place, they’re reserving at places they’re not even close to.
This is a hugely frustrating problem for those of us that are doing a lot of camping in federal Parks right now. I really like the three strikes and you’re out for a while thing. Where I see a lot of commenters missing the point completely here is that these are mainly public campgrounds we’re talking about, the 12 or 20 bucks doesn’t begin to cover the cost of the land, maintenance etc – this is a public resource that’s here for us to enjoy and hogging three or four of them when you’re going to use one, or just not showing up at all without canceling, when somebody else really wanted to go camping with their family that weekend Is selfish and ridiculous. And it is thievery in that sense- you robbed them of something they are paying taxes to support and had every right to use. Another solution is just to go back to mostly first come first serve, I would be fine with that. Just like some of the public boondocking areas that are being closed now, abuse it and lose it. Same for the reservation system.
So if someone gets sick or has a breakdown on the road that’s what you think should happen to them? You would punish a lot of people for the crimes of a few
A month ago we decided to go home a day early due to bad weather. I tried multiple times online ( it looked like they took the option to cancel off the page on the day of arrival) and sat on hold with Reserve America for over 45 minutes trying to cancel the site before I gave up. They need to make sure we have a way to get through to cancel. I do get frustrated with those empty sites but also when trying to do the right thing.
What about the parks using a confirmation system, where the camper gets an email or text message to confirm the reservation, similar to Dr offices, but with the built in cancellation if not confirmed by check-in time? Wondering if that could be feasible.
Good idea. I also like the extra fee for non-cancellation.
Not sure if I understand the issue. If someone is willing to pay for the privilege of reserving and paying for a campground spot to ensure it is available if they want to use it, how is that “theft”. The option of reserving multiple sites is available to everyone. I doubt that anyone is reserving multiple sites simply to screw other campers. Given that people who do not show up still paid for the space. How about people that make a reservation who then have a mechanical problem or other reason for not being able to use the spot they reserved? One thing that seems true is that unlike reserving a motel room, most of the time a reservation for a campground, once made, can not be canceled and the fee will not be refunded. If there were more complaints about the non-refund policy, I would be happier if we could get a refund if we canceled at least 6 hours before check-in time.
Roger there is alot of other people that would like to go camping…
Roger, you’re being naïve. There are more campers than sites available. If someone takes multiple concurrent reservations with the ability to use only one of them then they are blocking out other campers and the sites remain open but unavailable. How is that not “stealing” from other campers. Perhaps you haven’t had that happen to you (yet), but when it does then maybe you’ll understand.
But aren’t those “thieves” paying for the campsites when they make a reservation?
Yes they are! Some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.
As long as they are paid for that is NOT stealing in way…..shape….or form.
Yes they are stealing. They took away my opportunity to use the site.
I agree 100%. The people complaining could get online 6 months out, and book sites too. (And pay for them at that time)
I just fail to see where this is “robbery” in any sense of the word. I mean…. They are willing to “forfeit “ the money they already paid…. So how is it robbery? Maybe “un-sportsman’ish” but NOT robbery.
But, I know where your coming from. I’ve pulled up to RV Parks, and noticed a handful of sites empty, only to be told they were already paid for by a “no show”. Did I get mad? No …..What I did was I ensured 6 months out my butt was parked at my desk making reservations for the following year!…. Problem solved.
The problem is not theft. The problem is there are more people than campsites out there. And I seriously doubt a select few are booking multiple campsites. The problem I feel, is there are a great multitude of people who are making “plans” to go camping, and booking camping sites. As the article stated, they are booking the sites, because, ehh, what’s $10 or $15 bucks to reserve a spot. Well, the issue is this great multitude of people booking, are not actually going camping, leaving those who are actually trying to camp, without anywhere to camp. And as stated in the article, not much movement to fix this because, well, these “ghost campers ” lost their small reservation fees to the agency, but have left the campground 90% empty, and actual campers scrambling for somewhere to camp, when there is an empty campground in front of them, but is completely booked!
Roger, there is a set refund policy in the COE parks. to cancel a reservation, you pay a $10 cancellation fee and the rest of your money is refunded. The park I work in has had more and more no shows every week. the reservations are for one night up to 14 night stays. It amazes me that people do not request the refund if they are not coming so someone else can have that campsite. We are not allowed to cancel any reservation unless the customer requests it. They can also contact Res.gov to get their refund and there are allowable circumstances where they can get a full refund.
The issue is that while perfectly legal, it is a selfish douchebag move.
Totally agree about cancelation and rescheduling fees. I see it nothing more than a money grab. We reserved one night at a state park, got sick 2 days prior. I wasn’t paying $22 fee to reschedule or a $20 fee to cancel a $26 reservation. That’s rediculous. So the site was wasted and that’s a shame. What problem would it really cause if they allowed free cancellations or changes?
Erica, you can’t be serious!
We just returned from a USFS campground in Colorado that we have used for more than 25 years.More popular over the years, we used to be able to reserve a site even a month before a trip, now I’m online 6 months in advance. Even last year, no-shows were of a number easily accounted for by vehicle trouble, emergencies, etc. I’ve called the # provided a couple of times when we had trouble on the road. We canceled a fair share over the years, usually due to illness, or other changes of plans, as soon as possible
We had a discussion with the seasoned camp hosts when we arrived.It was their first year at this campground, they had worked at others in the region. They have had a big problem this year with no-shows. Puts them in a difficult place, they can release the site after checkout after the first night, but some have shown up after that. They seem to be trying to figure out causes, and solutions.
$75 reservations fee and you get it back when you get there. Would stop all that nonsense. Of corse keep keep the the orignal campsite fee.
+1
If I try to book flights over the same days with Southwest it warns me that my previous flight will be cancelled. This should be the policy with these sites. If you try to book more than once for a night the previous one will be cancelled. Of course they could use multiple log ins or names but if the computer sees a pattern it could block those users. Computers can do a lot if programmed correctly.
👍
Computer programing can help. Recreation.gov needs to operate similarly to Southwest and state the fact “that booking more than one site with overlapping dates will cause the deletion of previous reservations and charging a $100 “relisting” fee and all charges for the first day to go to lister and the rest refunded*. That should help the park owners.
This can be easily done by A. Storing Payment id number, beginning and ending dates of reservation. B. Storing Payment id billing address, beginning and ending dates of reservation. C. Auto-Canceling previous reservations that fall within the current reservation date. I would love to know if Southwest would share with the public the logic flow.
There is more than the first three-point I listed. But comparing the reservation cc number and reservation dates to created save file will catch multiple “dippers” probably 75%. More savvy users would use different CC. That is where the second step using the billing address and date would work.
I just experienced this “no-show” when camping in New Mexico. I couldn’t understand all the empty sites around me especially because when trying to reserve a site the recreation.gov showed the campground full. The camp host told me the same as your article. What really bothered me is that there were no longer any ‘first come, first served’ sites. Any way to camp at the state park was by online reservation only. The campground where I stayed had no internet access.
It sure seems there is a very easy fix for this problem. Do not allow multiple bookings for campsites for the same dates which are made under the same name, email address or credit card. I would think that recreation.gov would easily be able to track this type of problem and minimize it from occurring. If recreation.gov actually knows it is happening, the problem has been identified via algorithm and their software should certainly be able to be modified to stop it.
My thoughts exactly. If they can develop technology to track your whereabouts online and offline, then some tech guy should be hard at work writing the code to prevent this. But as the article notes, that’s like asking a government employee to do more work for the same money.
Dont rely on an underpaid government worker. Hire a tech company to program it.
The federal government contracts with Booz Allen to run recreation.gov. They are a tech company that operates a horribly inefficient website.
That wouldn’t work for me. I make reservations for other family members who are also camping and generally every site goes on my cc.
Glad that you’re so generous! Post your cc number for the rest of us!
That’s a poor excuse to use for double/ triple booking. I’m not allowed to book a double site with my discount. I don’t believe that you should be able to book more than 1 site with your cc.
Sometimes the site is empty for a good reason. We had a blown tire on the freeway. It took 4 hours for BCAA to get a truck to come and change it!! If it had been on the safe side of the van we would have done it ourselves. That meant we wouldn’t get to the site until after the gates were locked. I phoned the managing company and they radioed the staff to keep the site until the next day. A promised but long delayed (COVID) camping trip with our young grandson ended up being only a one night stay. By the way we also found out that our tires, bought new, were a lot older than we thought. I guess they had been in stock for some time. We bought them before we were aware of this problem.
We are currently at a COE called Damsite in central Missouri. All campsites show sold out all week long and we have been here for 6 days…just about every other site has been empty for those 6 days, including the weekend! So we are experiencing this first hand!
I go through this every camping trip here in New Mexico. Whole campground shows fully booked, but only a few campsites in use..
Also a method to use by campground managers includes specified arrival times for reserved sites. Say your reservation starts at 1pm your first night, user must also be on site by, say 4pm etc. And not just with a bucket, chair, etc, but with your RV or tent erected. After that hour of must be on site, your reservation is forwarded to a first come first served site. In other words, show up or give up your paid reservation. Others can still enjoy a night out. Selfish or well funded folks should not get to infringe on others.
Can’t tell you how many times we have come in later than 4pm, ummm maybe 80% of the time. If there are extra good sights to see, we may tarry along our route, but usually it’s bad roads, construction delays, etc and an overambitious travel schedule.
You can’t do this. Most people will arrive after 5pm.
Absolutely have run into the problem. And instead of enjoying our last RV trip, I spent the whole time complaining about this, due to each day having to find a spot that’s not reserved. And it’s not the first time. I am so beyond sick of this crap of people booking camping sites completely out, and no showing, only to leave those who wish to travel freely out in the cold! Policies need to change! Sure. Have some reservation spots. But have some that are first come first serve. So many campgrounds have gone to 100% reservation only, you have to plan your entire daily trip and book out each campsite ahead of time. What happened to just freely RVing and going where you wish, WHEN you wish. Leave some spots for these folks. Our last trip, wanted primitive camping, area rained out, had to return to campsites, only to find completely booked, but only only 10% full! Start charging these “ghost campers” $500 no show fees!! Let the REAL campers have their camping back. That’s your fix!
This is an easily fixed problem … Just charge $100 per day for no-shows by a certain time after check-in, unless a phone call is made. I’ll bet this will curb the problem a little.
BINGO!!
Uh-huh. And what happens in case of a family emergency? Let’s say your child or grandchild is involved in a motor vehicle crash far away and you are driving to the hospital. Will you have the foresight to make that call, either on the road or in the Emergency Department?Would you be willing to pay the extra money you would lose if you didn’t ‘make a phone call?’ Solutions to challenging problems are never “easily fixed.”
This is stupid and the main reason why online booking for Federal campsites should be banned. 1st come 1st serve. Should be the way . All I see now days is people complaining . How about this stop glamping to begin. Camping is to disconnect from society and reconnect with nature. Not bring your t.v. satellite and popcorn maker with you. Crying ridiculousness
Wow! Tell us how you really feel!
Sooo true!! If you make a reservation and can’t make it, you have to cancel 24hrs prior to date or no refund !!
I don’t agree with not being able to book in advance because someone traveling great distance, on cross country trips needs to be able to plan and book in advance. They can’t travel hundreds of miles and cross their fingers a campsite will be available when they get there. No 1st come 1sf served doesn’t work for most people in the 20th century.
Gosh! so cynical. All camping is not “Glamping”. To each, their own reason to get “ out there”. Some need to “plan ahead” while others prefer “ on the fly” !! We all come for our own personal flavor of enjoyment ( or necessity). Change will come; but complaints are necessary (ie, the requisite ) first step before any effectual remedy can be had. Venting on forums and such will give both self-comfort and, maybe, just maybe, get the attention of those who can affect a better method. Consumers need to let their voices be heard. inertia will keep the system unchanged!
Yes, i talked to a state park in South Carolina yesterday and you can book 11 months ahead of time. 60 days out, you can cancel and have no penalties. If youre preparing to go fulltime, you have to pay where you are now and pay next years fees at the same time to have a place to go next year. That’s hard to do for some. Especially knowing where you’re going to be next year, 11 months away. That’s why they reserve more than 1, then cancel later.
I think this article over looks how the cancelation and change fees effect the situation. My husband and I had a one night reservation at a local state campground. Two days prior we both came down with a fever. Due diligence meant it was best for EVERYONE that we cancel. We had paid $26 for the one night reservation, but were now less than 3 days prior to reservation, so the fee to change the reservation was $22 in addition to the $26 already paid OR a $20 fee to cancel in addition to the $26 we already paid. We felt bad that nobody would be allowed to use the site that we no longer could, but I wasn’t paying a $20+ fee because we got sick. It seems solely like a money making grab by the state park system which only causes more shortages in availability. What is the reason for punishing people who would cancel or reschedule? Other than opening that site for someone else, how does a change or cancellation negativity affect the campground?
If you’ve ever arrived at a campground that is full to see that there are tons of empty sites, you wouldn’t complain about higher cancellation fees. We’ve seen this a lot. There should probably be some type of escalating cancellation fee. Maybe just the loss of fee for 1 night plus a small fee. Cancelling after noon on the day of would be a higher more painful fee to encourage people to cancel when they know rather than waiting. Then finally a no show fee that’s extremely high. Hit people with a $100 fee that just book and no show and it’ll stop.
I like this proposal. It really solves the penalty fee issue in a way that provides the necessary “Hit” upon those that routinely try to “Game” or outsmart the system! …
If campgrounds would charge ex: $100 deposit for a reservation with the price of campsite deducted upon arrival. With no refund to “no shows”. This would discourage phantom reservations.
Agree. This would fix the problem.
I’ll admit I haven’t read through the entire 149 comments so maybe this has already been mentioned. There is a camp spot available on the Saturday night I want but I can’t book it because it’s a weekend and a two-night reservation is required. But, there are no other spots available on Friday night. When I called the campsite reservation number, it was verified that in order to get that Saturday night spot, I would have to book Sunday night & be a no show. I wonder if campground greed is part of the problem.
There are tons of vacant sites at Maumee Bay State Park in Toledo, Ohio. It’s a shame to see this every time we go there (often once/month or every 6-8) weeks. Strange, because the sign at the entrance always says they are fully booked, but you’d never know it when walking or riding up and down the various loops after check-in time. It’s a shame. It’s such a beautiful park that should be enjoyed by everyone who wants to camp there.
Okay, so tell us what we can help do to get this issue moving toward being fixed. Who do we all contact to put pressure on this so that we do continue to lose our privileges?
This is really easy to fix, no call or no show full day rate. Only allow cancellations prior to the date of arrival.
May I offer two solutions? First, let campgrounds say that at a specific time that day, you are a no-show, and your reserved site will be available first come first served. If you call ahead of that time on the same day, your site is held. For example, say y 6pm,any unfilled site is available for resale, unless you call by 5:30 THAT DAY to hold it (late arrival).
Second, Start a web page for people who, rather being a phantom, can offer their reservation for free. No money, just tell people you have a site available. They contact you for the reservation info, and once its gone, its gone. You’re already out the money, but you do good for someone willing to take your spot.
Just a thought….
Great idea assuming the campgrounds answer their phone. Private places generally do, but gov’t run campgrounds more often than not don’t answer the phone and don’t call/email back until it’s too late.