Last Friday I posted a question from a reader regarding the quality of Grand Design and the rotten floor they had under the slide out. There were some comments, e.g., one stating that he would never buy another Grand Design, others talking about a similar repair and the technician used marine grade plywood. There was even a comment from a Tiffin owner that had a rotten floor due to skimping on material and caulking. The point is, every manufacturer can and will have a unit that develops an issue. The test is how they take care of it. You can read the original post and comments here.
Tony Barthel had a post in the Sunday edition of RV Travel talking about what he would recommend when looking to purchase a new unit. He stated several times that every unit will at some point need service work as it is built by hand and not on an automated line with robots like cars and trucks. You can read the article and comments here.
Frame flex issue
There has also been much discussion on frame flex and pinpointing Grand Design, especially in a YouTube video by Keith Ward for RVtravel.com. I do think the content was a bit sensationalized and, since he did not have a comment from Grand Design or Lippert, was not really the entire story. However, Keith did state that in their defense (Grand Design) he reached out for a comment and had not gotten a response. I would have waited to run the article until that happened. Most manufacturers will not respond directly to someone that has thrown out such allegations as it most often seems like someone is just looking for a fight and a platform to get more views.
Dustin Simpson, of California RV Specialists, did an interview with Keith Ward and provided some good information from his experience in the shop. It is not just a Grand Design issue, and some responsibility does fall on the owners.
Weight ratings
For more than 30 years, I have been working with the RV Safety Education Foundation (RVSEF) beginning with developing a comprehensive RV safety training program for RV owners. RVSEF started with John Anderson, when his 5th wheel trailer started blowing out tires. They weighed his rig and it was grossly over the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), which is the maximum an RV can weigh with all the contents, including water. They unloaded the unit and it was still slightly over GVWR with nothing inside! Back then there were no weight stickers telling what customers could put inside—just these massive compartments all along the bottom of the rig.
John started A Weigh We Go and weighed coaches at campgrounds and rallies. They found that more than 75% of rigs were over the weight recommendations either by GVWR, individual axle (Gross Axle Weight Rating—GAWR) or individual wheel position. I helped him develop the RVSEF Safety Training Kit with nine topics, including weights and towing, with video and printed material. Even today, the weighing teams from RVSEF are finding almost 50% of units weighed are overloaded in some capacity. Some units weigh over 1,000 pounds more on one side than the other!
Exceeding the weight ratings puts stress on components when stopping and starting, cornering, and especially when maneuvering rough roads. I would believe that most of the units that had a cracking issue never had the rig weighed by individual wheel position—and most don’t know the kingpin weight!
Frame manufactured by Lippert
The frame is manufactured by Lippert and is engineered to have some frame flex along with the outriggers installed by the RV manufacturer. Over the years, slide rooms have become more popular, heavy luxury furniture is installed, and residential appliances like heavy double- or 4-door refrigerators have become standard. This additional weight must be taken into account when engineering the frame and outriggers. I know that Lippert has a dedicated team of qualified engineers working with every RV manufacturer. There is extensive testing both with Computer-Aided Design (CAD) and actual test track simulations.
However, nobody is perfect. Take, for example, recent issues with Tesla and just about every automobile manufacturer. What makes the difference is how the manufacturer steps up and stands behind their product—which Grand Design has done. Just this week, Don Clark, CEO & President of Grand Design, issued a statement regarding this issue. This is what I like to see from a company.
A sharper image of the above message from Don Clark is here.
RELATED:
- Grand Design Influence 2903RL; and Grand Design steps up (by Tony Barthel)
You might also enjoy this from Dave
Looking for new RV. Part 1: Why isn’t RV quality the same throughout a manufacturer’s lines?
Dear Dave,
Love reading RV Travel. I’ve learned so much! Please feel free to pass this on if you are unable to answer the million questions that I have.
My husband, Bob, and I currently own a small Passport Premier, 23-foot travel trailer. There are a few things that Bob wishes it had, and I have my own list. We’re thinking that when we retire, in 3 years, 10 months, 2 weeks and 3 days [but who’s counting?], that we’d like to look at getting a new travel trailer. We would like to take the next 2 to 3 years researching new RVs, and I am hoping you can help with some questions. They are in no specific order. …
Read the rest of Linda’s question and Dave’s answer
Dave Solberg is a leading expert in the RV industry and the author of the “RV Handbook.”
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Overweight RVs is way too common (IMHO). Newbies and many more seasoned RVers seem to believe that an empty space can be filled with whatever. They have no concept of weight and its affects on the structure of their unit. Case in point; our neighbor with a 28-30ft Prowler has filled the inside with so much stuff that it’s coming outside. They have to take stuff out just to live. The back of the truck is just as full. When my wife asked if they were concerned about being overweight they stated “no, this or that goes in the truck.” To which my wife said “you know, the weight of the truck matters in the equation.” I think your 75% number is probably a little low based on my observations anyway.
If Grand Design was indeed up front on the frame failure issue, they wouldn’t have forced customers whose frame they repaired to sign non disclosure agreements. It was only after the story got away from them that they, finally, publicly admitted the problem and offered a longer frame warranty.
We had frame failure during last year’s rally in Elkhart and Grand Design fixed it and didn’t ask us to sign anything. They told us we were 1800 lbs over which makes no sense. They tried to blame it on the food in our pantry but couldn’t tell us what exactly we had that weighed so much. We have a washer/dryer, two lithium batteries, and solar panels. We have space in our basement and our cabinets. We are not hoarders, we full time and like to travel as light as we can but we do have 3 adults living in our unit. Our new residential refrigerator is lighter than the electric/propane that came with the unit that was burning a hole in the back wall. TBC
Continued…
We discussed the lack of storage in the middle and back sections of the RV which would allow us to distribute the weight more evenly. All the weight is in the front, with the washer/dryer and 3 basements. It is almost impossible to not put more weight on the frame than the rest of the unit. This is a design flaw. We have 2400lbs of cargo weight and to have added an extra1800 lbs of weight, I can’t imagine what we could possibly have added to reach that weight. They did try to pin the problem on us but we told them if they are building these units for continuous occupation then they need to improve the design.
Lippert and anything with Lippert in it or on it…avoid like the plague…same goes for not-so-grand-design. You get what you pay for.
I have no doubts that vulnerable angles can accidentally be created when designing frames and bad welds can sometimes happen. But bad design affects ALL with that design, not just the few whose owners swear they’ve never seen abuse and think weigh tickets are for truckers.
Out of all the rigs we see in our travels, I’d bet at least 85% exceed GVRW.
Weight adds up fast and there isn’t much left to consume in a feature rich RV. Add 3 simple vent covers and a six-pack of your favorite beverage and you just added almost 100 pounds….
Does anyone find it ironic that a major design flaw arises from a model labeled Grand Design? I agree with the finding that many RVs are overloaded by their owners. They should have looked and known their weight limitation and weighed the RV. Those little yellow stickers are hard to find when RVs are packed so tightly at shows you cannot get around the unit and salesmen won’t point it out. On the manufacturing side of things, ample storage capacity is often built in to many units allowing one to easily exceed their weight bearing capacity.
We own a mostly stationary 2017 37′ TT, used as a seasonal 2nd home. We (and others) recently decided to change RV parks. We are not total pack rats, but do have more than the bare bone basics in our TT. I made sure all waste and fresh water tanks were empty, and weight distributed as best we could. And crossed my fingers for the 55 mile trip. All went well.
My point being, unless you travel near Interstate highways (which we try to avoid), weight scales are few and far between. And if you are lucky enough to have a scale nearby – it typically only accommodates total weight; forget trying to weigh individual axles or wheels. And what do you do with any excess if you are far from home?
Glad Grand Design is doing something. We have a Forest River Ibex 19mbh with slippery chassis and our trailer along with at least one other of the same model at our local dealer here in Colorado is having a frame flex issue that started the second year of ownership. Forest River only gives a 1 year warranty, so we have been out of pocket for thousands in repairs, which have not worked. Our trailer is twisting and cracking apart. It has been nearly 2 years and we are taking a massive hit financially with a lemon trailer. Shame on forest River and shame on Lippert.
Thank you, Dave! 🙂 This is great news! So glad that Grand Design has extended their warranties, but if component failures are due to operator error, then it won’t matter, will it? My understanding is that failures due to misuse are never warrantied items. Thanks for this excellent discussion and including Grand Design’s response, Dave! Safe travels! 🙂
I’ve read Parts 1 & 2 of Dave’s article titled, “How Do You Determine Proper Truck Towing Capacity?” Part 2 mentions Payload Capacity, however the article is about Towing Capacity. I’ve recently come to realize that my RAM 2500 Laramie has a Cargo Carrying Capacity (payload capacity) of 2119lbs. My truck can tow ~20,000lbs behind it, however try to find a 5th wheel in the 30′ range or a 5th wheel that weighs 13,000 empty, that doesn’t have a pin weight over 2000lbs. To be legal, I can follow Dave’s article instructions on determining towing capacity and be illegal when it comes to CCC due to pin/hitch weight.
Great article, I was especially drawn to the part about the gross vehicle weight rating. My wife and I just happened to weigh our rig and we were overweight in Rig and are in the process of shedding some. My big question is for the designers and manufacturers. Why do they make these rigs with so much storage and advertise it as having this much storage for people to cram all their stuff in it?
That’s a very good point, Tim!👍 Have a good evening/night. 😀 –Diane at RVtravel.com
sounds like consumer demand for the storage compartments. There should be more specific guidelines made available for the end user that might educate about realistic weight management. HOWEVER, the consumer is responsible in the end for appropriate cargo weight…..
Here’s one that had me scratch my head over.
2002 montana rl3280, dry weight rated 10,400 # springs rated 10,000 # ???
And our safety minded gov. Allows this….