By Andy Zipser
Andy is the owner of the Walnut Hills Campground and RV Park in Staunton, Virginia.
You’d think most adults would realize that nothing is free. You’d be wrong.
Under the headline “Newbie LP conservation tips,” RVTravel recently counseled readers to “conserve propane by switching on your electric water heater instead of propane.” It further suggested that another way to conserve propane is to “use an electric space heater instead of the furnace to stay warm.”
Elsewhere, the advice has been more blatant, with RVers encouraging others to use electric heaters when at campgrounds because the electricity is “free,” unlike the propane that would otherwise keep them warm.
Meanwhile, the February issue of Woodall’s Campground Management — a monthly trade publication targeted at campground owners — concurrently ran an article headlined, “More Owners Metering Sites as Cost of Electricity Continues to Climb.” The subhead quotes Wade Elliott, owner of Utility Supply Group, a major supplier of electric pedestals and related campground equipment, as saying that “somebody coming in to spend a night or two” is “going to use as much electricity in those two nights as the person staying for an extended period.”
Clearly, then, there’s a collision in the making between campers trying to save on costs and campground owners unwilling to pay for those savings.
Back in the day, when electricity was relatively cheap and campground electric demand was modest enough to be met with 20 amp service, there was no more reason to meter kilowatt consumption than there was to measure water usage. Yet both those variables have changed. Twenty amp service is anachronistic, 30 amp will serve only the smaller end of the market, and even 50 amps is becoming insufficient for some of the most power-hungry behemoths. The cost of electricity, meanwhile, climbed 15% over the past decade.
The combination of rising costs and rising demand is now threatening the underlying concept of bundled services that is typical of most campgrounds. We already have campers demanding a la carte pricing, claiming that they shouldn’t have to pay for amenities they’re not going to use, be it WiFi or the swimming pool.
Now they may find the same logic biting them back, as campground owners conclude they’ll be better off charging a separate fee for each service and utility. Taken to its extreme, perhaps we’ll see a revival of once ubiquitous coin-operated showers!
ONE POSSIBLE RESPONSE, of course, is for campground owners to raise site rates across the board to cover their increased electric costs. But that means simply that the cost of “free” electricity consumed by some RV campers is spread among all RV campers — including, ironically, the same bunch who want to pay for everything on an a la carte basis. Moreover, spreading the costs in this fashion encourages the kind of wastefulness that results from the “but it’s free” mentality.
That isn’t a merely speculative observation. At our campground, all our monthly sites are metered — but in addition, every time we replace a pedestal we do so with a metered one. As a result, we have some pretty interesting data to compare usage patterns between those who pay directly for what they consume — our month-to-month campers — and our overnighters, who don’t.
The upshot? Those who don’t pay for electric consumption use nearly twice as much juice as those who do.
Right now those metered overnight sites are like that for our own internal monitoring purposes. But as our costs keep rising — our monthly electric bill currently averages a bit more than $6,000, which is a whole mess of overnight fees — the thought of electric usage fees is never far from our minds.
Your comments are welcome.
Yes I use the power, but I do not use any of the facilities at an rv resort…….therefore I am not as costly as someone who uses power, facilities etc.
That is valid. Fewer swimmers—less chemicals, and matentance, fewer people=fewer showers. Cable, wifi, etc., are fixed costs anyway so more people just means worse and worse wifi which already sucks,, not more CG costs. They should probably just meter everyone, then of course, add in the “extra costs” of an already paid person to read the meter when you leave at 7am. Lol
I guess a credit card swipe to use Electricity is soon to come and I can see a campground owners concern. I guess also that solar pannels will be in everyones future.
At a city park in IA they at coin slots for quarters . 25 cents per hr for elect, parking free.
At Motel Brand X. I get utilities, clean sheets, basic cosmetics, great WIFI, free breakfast and TV for $75.00 per night. Andy who offers to rent me dirt, provides electric, marginal WI-FI and sewer and water can’t get it done with national brand marketing and at $50. a night. Any CG that uses electric as an excuse to AGAIN raise over priced dirt spot rental rates is an opportunist.
Exactly, and if it is cool day we don’t really use any power, hot days with no shade yes
For anyone staying at a RV Park seasonally then metered electric is pretty commonplace but if RV Parks start to meter electric usage for vacationers, weekenders and over-nighter’s then they just may price themselves right out of business.
The discussion is re: Electricity use/abuse, camping electricity usage vs motorhome/mobile home usage. Besides usage, there is a substantial difference in providing adequate desired service to ‘campers vs. motor homes/mobile homes. To ignore that difference is disingenuous. Likewise, servicing short rentals is far more labor intensive than servicing long term rentals.
If I am gonna pay 50 dollars or more per night at an RV Park, I am gonna use the Electricity. Even though I have a 50 Amp RV, my usage out of that 50 dollars will only be a few bucks. I cannot use my Heat Pumps on my RV below 40 degrees and unless I am in an extremely HOT part of the US, the A/C will be run very little. In some cases RV parks charge extra for 50 Amps, these are places I usually avoid.
For those of us who are traveling and only staying a night or two, I wish campgrounds had more clean, level and gravelled, un-serviced, sites to use. CG owners complain about folks who stay at WalMart and other such places, when we are only in the area for a day or two. A level spot, dump station and potable water is all we need. I would pay up to $20.00/ night, tax Included, for a clean and level spot. I can understand the dilemma faced by CG owners as “camping” has changed dramatically over the last decade. The way I see CG owners, in the future, trying to save money on electricity usage, is to meter the sites. The will charge a basic fee and then return any unused, prepaid, costs to, or extra bill the customer, depending on the case. It will make checking out a busy time for the owners, and a line up of customers, but what else can you do, if electricity consumption is a problem for CG owners.
I own an all electric coach. When I’m traveling across the country I typically only use 50a electric. I dump and put in water every 4 or 5 days.
If I stay more than 4 days, I might use the wifi.
I have satellite so don’t use cable.
But I don’t mind the costs as that is part of supporting the nice RV parks.
As an all electric coach, I do use a lot of power. In the summer, I will draw 40 amps when the a/c units are on.
I bring my own water, LP gas, and dump at home. I only hook up my electric plug for summer a/c and about 10, 2-3 minute bursts of microwave power. Every thing else is powered off my solar panel. Cable TV can be nice for a couple hours a day on my 12 volt tv. The motorhomes radio is nice. I don’t leave my outside light on at night. I don’t want to pay extra!!!
I welcome the metered sites, as we haul a 13′ fiberglass camper without AC, without a Tv and without a water heater. We use solar and what few lights we have are LED. Bring on the meter! It isn’t fair to blanketly charge a 45’motorhome the same nightly fee as is charged to us. At a campground in the Outer Banks of NC, we spoke with the owner who explained why she charged users for their electric usage. She said previously, those with AC would leave it on, running on high all day, while they went off exploring for the day. That got expensive for her! Now, with meters, if someone chose to do that, it was their cost to pay, not hers. Our electric “bill” for a one-week stay was $2.35. Gotta love it!
I like the idea of alacart pricing herever practical. Either you pay for your own usage (and get a better price) or you pay a flat rate and pay for the “Average” expense at all the sites. If the park owner does not cover his or her costs and a bit of profit, the park might be condos the next time you visit.
We don’t use any more KWHs “because it’s free” than we would if we were charged for it at a metered site. For us (old and retired), when we like a campground/resort we pay their price even though we don’t use the pool/water parks, tennis , or volleyball courts, and as a rule we request sites as far away from such facilities as possible. When on the road, we look for campgrounds without major family orientated perks as these are more busy and loud when we like peace and quite. There is nothing wrong with the parks that draw campers with kids. Hopefully the kids will continue to enjoy the life style. I guess it boils down to we all pay for things we don’t use, so we can be where we want when we want to be there.
The park owner doesn’t save any expense because you don’t use any of the other amenities. They are a fixed cost whether you do or don’t. Energy is user driven.
I don’t think that was Tony’s point. The point was, they are willing to pay the park’s cost whether they use the amenities or not, and choose to park away from all the hubbub to enjoy some peace and quiet.
Our two little electric space heaters and gas space heater are more efficient at heating our 5th-wheel than the furnace so we use them (either-or, not both kinds at once) when necessary. We choose electric heat over gas when we have hookups not to save money on propane, but to reduce condensation in the rig.
I could be wrong, but I think condensation is caused by heat, not the WAY you produce heat.
From answers.com: Assuming complete combustion, 44 grams of propane burns to produce 72 grams of water (plus some carb…on dioxide). The extra mass comes from atmospheric oxygen.
So yes, burning propane produces moisture.
Dear Campground Owners,
If the cost of electricity is becoming cost prohibitive, follow the lead of some of the hotel chains that 1-The electricity to the room is not activated until you enter. 2-There are subtle signs/requests to converse energy by reusing towels 3-Signs are strategically placed to educate the guest.
But as someone who is on the road frequenting RV parks on the weekend there are others ways that you can conserve energy, save money and become more environmentally friendly.
1-Make sure that all of your water and electricity connections are up to code and not leaking or mis wired.
2-Fix the leaky faucets and toilets in your bathhouses. At least twice a month I am in a park where one of the showers or toilets are on and running due to faulty maintenance.
3-Please don’t print me a receipt the size of war and peace. Email or a condensed version is just fine.
4-Figure out another way to provide campground maps which in my case get used once and then trashed which adds to the trash bill (I understand that this is a source of revenue)
It doesn’t bother me much when we have to pay for electric. However it does bother me when the campground marks up the kw rate to make this a profit center.
Steve, a privately owned campground IS a profit making enterprise. Let the market decide. If the KW rate is too high, nobody is going to park there.
So what does the park owner charge per kilowatt hour ? Many electric utility tariffs prohibit resale for other than “.. reasonable apportionment methods, including sub-metering, may be used by the Customer solely for the purpose of allocating the cost of the electricity billed by the utility.”
Personally I don’t think charging for power and water use is wrong, as long as they have an honest way of recording usage. This will add to the work employees will have to do. Every time someone comes in or leaves meters will have to be documented.
But if part of the cost of the site includes power, water, andvsewer costs, is part of the charges already, don’t just add on the extras with out lowering the basic cost.
Excellent point. Some usage is already calculated in the fees.
I drive a Class B that is all solar. I don’t have a generators, and I don’t use campground electricity. But I pay the rate for a campsite that an electrical hog uses. Metering electrical use only makes sense.
Our coaches are the last place where we can be energy hogs without consequences. I’d love to see manufacturers start building energy efficient rigs. Mine is, why not yours?
Would you like a World where your GPS refuses to route you through the mountains because it uses too much fuel? Would you like your engine computer rebuking you because you accelerate hard or brake too often, thereby wasting gas? Would you like a an energy center reminding you that only energy hogs need an overnight temperature over 55F?
I am full time. I have been to only one campground that charged me for electricity. Most of the other campgrounds i am at are military and so far, they don’t charge for electricity. Anyway, i payed as much at that campground for electricity as i would when i owned a sticks and bricks! I am against paying for electricity ala carte because i am pretty sure, your paying unfair prices. I will avoid those type of campgrounds as much as i can.
The newer RV’s and trailers are much more energy efficient than past models. LED lighting (90% less power needed) ,energy efficient appliances, flat screen tv’s (about 1/4 the power needed than old CRT types), more efficient AC units and in most cases, better insulation.
??
What gets me about this article is the fact that electricity mentioned shooting up 15 percent, they seem to skip over the fact that camping sites don’t exactly stay the same price either.
Somebody has got to pay the bookwork that comes with individual pricing of charging more for elect. I would think that averaging out the price of electricity per night and add but it in to camping fee and be done with it.
What we notice is the state park camping fees in some states are more than a lot of good sam parks.
We are full timers and basically see it all.
There is no “free” lunch. Pay for what you use. Don’t split the 6000 dollar cost amount
All users. That’s a reverse method to get to socialism.
Most of our stays are for a month or longer. If electric isn’t included in the monthly rate, we have seen two different ways to be charged. 1 – a metered connection at .10 to .15 cents/kWh, this usually adds up to about $20/month. 2 – at least one campground wanted to charge a flat $5/night, which is ridiculous. So, we moved on to another campground.
I believe if you are going to start metering you should start with the 50 amp sites. 30 amp service is 120 volts which gives you 3600 watts. You could maybe run two 1500 watt space heaters. 50 amps is 240 volts which gives you 12,000 watts, four times as much energy. With the 240 volts comes three or four roof airs, clothes dryer, heat pumps etc.
Just a simple statement for clarification. NO RV is outfitted with 240 volt recepticals. There are two separate 120 volt circuits. Yes, there is 50 amp and yes there are 12,000 watts but no 240 volts. Rvelectricity.com
What is the voltage reading between the two 120 VAC lines?
Agreed it is 220-240 volts between each leg of 50A service, but only 110-120 V between single leg and neutral. Each leg services about half of the RV power load, all at 120V (e.g one AC on each leg).
Why not do as all marinas do is charge a daily rate for 30 or 50 AMP service….most RV park owners can quickly determine what that daily off set rate should be…..I would say $3/day…
It normally cost me between $5 to $10 a night for one 30 amp plug at the marina. Most people that have boats are surprised there is no charge for electric and camp grounds.
Beautiful RV Park on the lower Rogue river,OR., stayed a week. Rate plus electric. We used electric heat in AM. Cost; rate plus electric, electric was about $4.00. This a fair system.
With so many new RVs being built with all-electric appliances, those of us with propane are going to be paying extra. We’ll ignore it all and just continue boondock instead paying those high prices, and just hope RV parks will come to their senses and realize that some money is more than no money.
If I ran an rv camp I would consider a $10 per day surcharge for 50 amp rvs. I know I’m old fashioned, but I think some of the diesel pushers and huge fifth wheel rigs are overcrowding campsites and congesting everything. It’s like when you take an airline seat and realize delta airlines has sandwiched you between a couple of 400 pound sweaty travelers chowing down on jalapeno garlic chips. I like the simpler things.
So gross! So true! Aisle seats for me!
So basically every camps should go solar but it’s to expensive to do that so until the oil and pg&e dies it will always be expensive. Even when solar takes over those creeps will still have their claws in congress to keep us paying.
I think the base cost of the campground fee should include a certain amount of electricity. Any overages should then be added to the campground fee. The campground should NOT pad the electric fee to make addtl money. The amount of “included electricity” should be set for the daily/weekly/monthly camper. The power company’s electricity fees should be posted or disclosed to every camper upon checking in. The meters should be certified yearly by the power company.
Policies will have to be in place for discrepancies between campers using their own devices to measure/determine electric usage & what the campground indicates.
I worked for an electric utility for almost 30 years.I always told people I hated to recirculate my pay check,so we watched our usage as much as possable.
Having said that and knowing usage and rates,I know that ten million of those led lights sending a signal to some other planet use power,as do all that other light pollution that everyone has decided is needed for 24 hours a day of light!
We all could use a little restraint and just accept that as stated before,nothing is free
The issue I have with metering is, I guess you have to wait to leave in the morning until someone comes out to check your meter. Or, if there’s some high tech way they can read your meter from the office, you STILL have to go to the office in order to check out. And, what if you want to leave EARLY in the morning before the office opens?
Otherwise, I really don’t have an issue. Our 30 amp old fashioned travel trailer doesn’t use much power anyway.
+1 on this post. I don’t understand how this (metering) would work in the real world. No one wants to wait in a morning checkout line while a runner goes out in his golf cart to read your meter. And as Tommy notes, early departure seems impossible unless some sort of pre-payment is done. Among all the theoretical and theatrical posts here, none seems to address this issue. Only four approaches seem practical (to me). 1. The campground eats the charges (meaning raises the rates). 2. The campground adds a non-negotiable surcharge at check-in based on the size of the rig. 3. The campground charges a premium for sites where 50-amp service is available. 4. If the campground wants to have 20/30/50 amp service available at all sites, they install a remotely-activated switch for 50-amp power in some (or all) sites, and add a surcharge for activation. I note that a remotely-activated switch mechanism probably costs no more than a meter, and is a lot easier for both the camper and the owner to use.
Actually, it’s a very simple process. We just left a campground that metered our electric. They provided the rate (.13), and, before we left in the early AM, we simply subtracted the initial reading from the reading when we disconnected.
Easy to calculate – I wrote a check and left it in the payment slot. Only took ~5 minutes.
So now I have to write a check? And go over to the office to depart? For a one night stay?? I will go elsewhere. Completely ridiculous.
If you have a $6000 Bill than it means you have something using power which means you have people at your business. No Bill means no people. If I plugged in my heater on high it used 1 1/2 kilowatt. Our per kw charge is 10 cents so the heater costs 15 cents an hour. A 10 hour run ( never shutting off) is $1.50 Site is ??. $40 a night. I think you can afford it. How much power is allotted to your campgrounds for street lights signage,pool filter motors, water pumps shower heaters? And the list goes on. All part of doing business. If it’s too much, find another line of work. Expenses go on whether someone is there to pay those bills or not
I don’t see where there is any battle brewing here. People will quit staying at RV parks if they decide the costs of conveniences are too steep. Plenty of Walmarts, truck stops, city parks, and city streets out there as well as a whole RV crowd accustomed to getting as much as they can while paying as little as possible for it. They should keep in mind that the owner of an RV park isn’t in it to provide a service without any concern for profit. Only the government can do that.
Are you nuts? Camping on city streets and parks is ILLEGAL in many jurisdictions. Because of vagrancy issues Walmarts are banning overnight camping. Have you seen what’s happening in Seattle with the vagrants in RVs camping on streets and parks?
This is all irelevant if the Democrats implement AOC’s New Green Deal – because all RV’s will become illegal since they are gas or diesel powered. That means no one will be able to drive to any RV parks anyway. So the RV industry is totally forced out of business – no more RV production, no more RV dealers, no more RV parks. For that matter most of the entire travel & vacation industry is also killed off because most will not be able to drive or fly anywhere.
This is not a forum for political commentary. Call into Rush Limbaugh’s Show that!
Proposed Political actions will have direct and immediate impacts on my RV and the RV industry. Therefore – these kinds of government proposals are most certainly relevant to an RV discussion thread.
X2
AOC fan are you?
HAHA! won’t happen…ever. Think of everything that runs on fossil fuel…from weed wackers to hospital back up generators. The entire farming and trucking industry that feeds the nation as a whole? naw..it’s fantasy my friend!
Interesting discussion. There has to be a balance somewhere. I have seen campgrounds fight to make a profit and finally give up and sell the land for development. They are in business to show a profit. Each side should look at it from the other viewpoint, then try to come up with a solution that works for both sides. Otherwise everyone loses.
Having attended many RV shows over the years – most recently the Tampa RV Supershow – the trend in many RVs is towards totally fully electric units. The logic is – since many, many new RVs now offer residential refrigerators which are electric powered only, larger battery banks and inverters must be included in order to power them. Since the RV now has more battery capacity many RVs now also include induction cooktops. Having gone this far some manufacturers have opted to totally eliminate the propane system entirely, fitting electric hot water heaters and electric heaters instead of propane or dual powered units. They also recognize that most people do not boondock – their view of RVing is to move from one RV park to the next where they can simply plug in. So why bother with propane? Hence – electricity usage will continue to climb in many newer models. Couple this with rising electrical rates and the justification for electrical metering becomes more apparent.
I sympathize with RV park owners on this. When we lived in southern California last year we were paying as much as $.35/Kwh – and the power companies wanted to raise rates even more. It got so bad that on hot days we could not afford to run the A/C in our house so we drove around or went to the mall. With the push for moving towards EV’s, replacing petroleum powered vehicles, electrical demands will only increase, and hence so will electric rates. That means higher RV park rates and/or electric metering.
If a Park is going to charge extra for Electric I’m all for having a meter. I’m not wasteful and try and conserve if I’m in my RV Camping or At Home. Let the wasteful people pay more. If a lot of you owned a RV Park you would have a different point of view I’ll guarantee you.
We recently stayed at Tombstone Territories, a lovely RV park a few miles from Tombstone, that charged for electricity for overnight guests. All this is clearly explained on their website. We managed our electricity use (such as charging batteries with solar panels and only using AC power when absolutely necessary). I think our electricity cost was only around $5 for 4 nights (during cold weather in February). I think this is a great model, as long as park operators don’t overcharge and fully disclose the policy and rates.
And you think that $1.25 per day you paid offset the installation, maintenance and operation costs of a metering system? Again… A solution looking for a problem. Charging $5 more per site for a site with electric vs without solves it without unnecessary meters and the upkeep that goes along with it. Monitor your monthly per site usage and tweak site fees accordingly otherwise we will be putting meters in ketchup dispensers at burger joints to make sure everyone is paying their “fair share” regardless of the cost to implement and maintain.
One alternative I see is for more RV parks to offer reduced or no services stays. Provide more sites for boondocking and let the RVs staying there be self-sufficient on their propane systems, solar, and/or generators. As many have said here they do not really use or care about typical “resort” amenities so why pay for them anyway? Many RV parks we have stayed at seem to have extra space which could easily accommodate space for boondockers, and often that is all we need – a place to safely and legally park our rig for the night.
I totally agree, a lot of us are pretty self-sufficient. With solar, propane and good batteries..what is most important for us is a safe space and the all important dump station!
I would agree with more boondocking spaces. We often need a safe place to pull off the hiway for the nite. We can be self-sufficient for the night in our Class A, 45′ motorhome. Many Walmarts are getting too congested to pull in with our rig & tow and work around all the parking lot cars & planters. 🙁
Just spent a month in Yuma. Never used the a/c or electric heater; used propane. Electric bill was $100.+! We conserved as much as possible too. 17 cents per kwh. Weather was cool too! 40 ft mh
The summer we worked at a campground in NH we were billed by the city utility. Once you added all the taxes to the usage it came out to 35 cent a KWH.
Did I miss it anywhere in the comments of the disparity between monthly site rental and overnight rental. Yes the monthly is a lot cheaper if you average it out per night but you pay your own electricity. You pay a lot more for one nighters that is way over the amount of electricity you will use.
Pretty simple . I just walked by a diesel pusher. The owners had both their air conditioners running and the front door wide open. Would they do that at home? Solution: charge big rigs a surcharge for the: fireplaces, 3-5 TVs, and home-style zero degree fridge/freezer side-by-side. Charge smaller RVs a smaller surcharge. Charge pop-ups and campers less because they use less. If you plan to be totally on solar, charge less. Call it an RV user fee. Easy. Much cheaper than having someone at the campground walk each sites each day to monitor use. Not to mention the installation costs. And please take off the political comments here. Not relevant, not needed, not wanted, and not helpful.
I see no problem with RV campgrounds charging for electricity. As long as they charge the same rate a local rate payer is charge for electricity. In other words, if the neighborhood homes and businesses adjacent to the campground are charged a certain rate, then the campground charges the same. NO MARK-UPS allowed.
Some apartment complexes meter the water usage of each unit, and bill the tenents. The apartments add a mark-up on the water! The renter is charged more for water than the single family home next door! That is wrong.
As to the suggestion of using city streets for RV camping? Are you out of your mind? Only vagrants do that! Seattle has a big problem with RV vagrants parking on the streets!
What about administration fees? What about markups for services provided? Park owners are running a business, and as such are entitled to cover their operating costs as well as making a profit. As electricity becomes a larger operating cost for parks due to rising electricity rates and increased RV demands then park owners are justified in covering these costs. But no park owner ever went into that business expecting to become a millionaire. But they do need to make some money so they can maintain the park, hire employees and justify their own time in dealing with government regulations, insurance, marketing, etc..
Cost for the utility distribution should be covered by the cost the campsite. Utility cost should just be the cost of that utility without any upcharge.
Thank you! It isnt easy making everything come out evenly and please everyone. But we try.
Federal law prohibits marking up electricity rates. Any campground that marks it up is breaking the law, and should be reported immediately to the local electricity utility.
Can you cite that Federal Law?
I know from working in campgrounds we could never charge more then the electric companies charge the park but I thought it was a state or local law. So would not surprise me if it was a federal law.
Lydia, Commercial establishments often pay a sales tax on their electricity. They also are subject to a peak use minimum fee that stays in place for a full year. Campgrounds in the north that close for winters are still subject to that peak minimum fee. These items would be in addition to the power company KW rate and would be reflected in the electrical charge. Not all fees in excess of the KW rate are rip offs – but they should be fairly explained.
Talk about unfair. since my 13 foot scam is so small I get shoved into tiny spaces yet I pay exactly the same rate at the huge units with slide outs. I consume far less utilities too but that also is never taken into consideration. I parked at Landing Resort in Zephyr hills Florida next to trailer who had a slide out on my side and two picnic table on the other which gave her no space left to park. I was FORCED by the manage of Landing Resort, in Zephyrhills Fl to either move or allow her to park on MY paid for lot. As I had no other reservation and already paid the month I stayed for that month only Al because he did not wish to have to other (more permanent) resident move one of the outside table. So dishonest. I do not mind everyone paying for their own electricity, even though I use all electric, as it may keep the rates lower for all.
So, you raise the rate per night a bit. Maybe more for a large rig that “demands” 50 amp service (all electric) and a little less for 30 amp and even less for 15/20 amp. If a CG wanted to cover the $6 k it would take 50 sites occupied 25 nights a month with an additional cost of $5 to cover the $6k bill completely. A rate increase of $2.50 a night covers about half that bill. This is a “quick formula” that doesn’t reflect season or weather. Metering for actual cost would be great but that would add a lot of front end cost. Smart meters could preclude “reading the meter” but you would need to limit checkout or check in times because of staffing. Technology might be the answer but it would be costly.
I’m good with à la carte (as a 50 amp user) metered usage, but in an fairy tale ideal world (where every thing is fair, wink wink!) make it for everything in the campground. As many have said, many “features” of campgrounds we do not use, (public showers/bathrooms, pools, cable etc). We camp mostly in the hot and humid gulf coast where both ac’s are usually running wide open… should we get a discount on electricity if the camp ground does not provide enough “shade” at our particular parking spot? Should the camp ground charge more if the top of our coach is black in color which absorbs more heat?
The cost to install and read all of the meters for utilities would be quite large and probably have little pay back…
The campground is a business, they will charge what the public will allow. If you do not want to pay to play, take you business/play elsewhere. If enough of the public agrees, the business will not last long. Very few business are set up to lose money long term! If the business does well, well the problem may be you!
You have a good valid point about the ‘shade’. A couple of strategicly placed shade trees located at each site would help to reduce electric use immensely. The initial cost of the trees wouldn’t be cheap but in the long run it would pay off, and help beautify the CG, giving birds a home, etc.
Just don’t place the trees in an area that is going to block my satellite dish.
I would imagine that metered pedestals would use an electronic meter which “talks” back to the campground’s central computer. At time of check-in, the clerk “reads” the electric meter via the computer link. Then, at check-out, a second reading is made and the net kWh is calculated and charged at whatever rate is current.
In a perfect world. Not gonna’ happen!
IAs a 7 year full timer you see many charging schemes by owners and hear complaints about rate methods by RVers- At the end of the day owners must make a profit and RVers will stay where they can aford. What customers do you want? Some are so cheap they take sugar for personal use from camp ground coffee supplies—I have observed this odd behavior o occasionally.
Complex or trying to please a few complainers pricing strategies will just generate more work, longer lines and time AND more unhappy customers. Decide what you need and charge accordingly. Some RVers are happy dry camping, some want high end and can and will happily pay for that. Some people will complain if you give free coffee
For a long time I have said if I open the campground it would be complete a la carte pricing if you wanted the basic campsite it would be $X you want to use the power pedestal there it would be coin or credit card operated where you plug in and you pay for how much you want to use same with water and the dump station everything would be coin or credit card operated so you pay for what you use and I think that would be the most fair thing to the campground owner and to the RV are as long as campground order didn’t get greedy but what he charged for his power
I’m dry-camping in Arizona this winter where it’s warm. Not this winter.Temps in the 30s overnight for too long drove me to an RV park with full hookups so I could use my space heater. However, since my travel trailer (a Casita) is only 17 feet long, it heats up within minutes. On the other hand, I was paying the same as the enormous sunblockers that probably use four times the electricity that I do. Why should I subsidize them?
If you want to keep your electric bill low, I suggest you charge by the RV foot. You may end up with smaller rigs in your park, but your electric bill would drop like a rock.
Wendy Wenner Busk
Gainesville, FL
I guess cold natured people in hotels in the summer are subsidizing the hot natured, since they run the AC more at the same room rate. Oh and you used the bathroom facilities more than the motorhome a few sites over so you should pay for that. They don’t want to “subsidize” your usage. If they did use 4x the electric of your casita…at 20 kwh per day a $0.12 per kwh we are talking $2.40 per day vs your $0.60 and that’s a big If. This ignores the fact that higher end coaches have more energy efficient appliances, insulation etc. What’s the kwh per sft usage for a smaller inefficient trailer vs the “enormous sunblocker” – All ignored in your post.
Simple math… at “melt my plug” amperage, my 30A trailer can theoretically drink a maximum $8 of electricity in a 24 hour period. That would be carefully balancing loads to keep at full draw without popping the breaker, all through the night and all day. A lot of work to get my full $8 of electricity!
I’m charged $5 per day typically for electric, so absurdity would say i’m gaining $3 of electricity. Not worth my time to stay up all night and stay in all day for $3.
But, I have a meter IN my RV, so I have actual data. On a “back from boondock” heavy electric usage day, charging batteries, cooking with 120V, running AC or heater, and using 120V hot water and fridge… I still use under $1 of power on average. Crazy-hot days, maybe $3 of the $5 I paid.
I realize there is installation and upkeep to offering power, but there seems PLENTY of cushion built into the fees now for that. I doubt CGs lose money on my renting a site at a good rate, plus then paying 5X the Kw cost for power. Maybe the math IS different for mega busses with 12 AC units and a hottub or charging electric cars, but i’m skeptical THAT different since 50A sites charge more here.
Ultimately, this whole discussion gives me a sour taste for socialist thoughts of price- dictation. I’ll fully support a CGs right to charge whatever market prices they want to, and congratulate them if they can get it …but I’ll probably be renting next door if rates are more fair.
All great points ignored in these “meter every site” posts. If you meter electric…. Meter every amenity. If the logic applies to electric it applies to ALL. For all the moron advocates of this practice, (which with increased maintenance costs of all the meters and readers, would be less profitable, not more) I propose a “pain in the ass meter” be placed at my site for these tunnelvisioned mathtards to reimburse me for the unnecessary ass whip.
I completely understand the variance of utility usage between guest. I own a vacation rental home. Some guests are there very little, others a lot. Some like it cold, some warmer I would never think it wise to penalize one guest from the other based on their comfortable use of the home. There is no way I would want meter their usage. I evaluate costs on a regular basis and adjust rates accordingly. That’s what every business does when calculating fixed costs. Isn’t it already set up that larger sites with higher amp service pay more and visa versa. That’s not unexpected. Metering opens up potential abuse of fees for unscrupulous campground owners and deservedly or not, it will bring negativity to all metered campground owners. Just do the math on a regular basis people.
Well said Linda. I’m already paying a higher price at my current campground because its Florida in March. And they are charging for electric because I’m staying 1 month. The day I leave the daily rate drops significantly. :-/
I pay for electricity at home so why not at a campsite. To avoid the long lines upon exit I see each pedistal with a card reader. Swipe your card and select the number of kilowatt hours. I also think the campground owners should have to post the price charged per kilowatt hour at the entrance to the park and on their website. Placed along side their rate should be the electric company’s current rate. If they want us to pay, and I’m not opposed to that, they need to buy into this situation too.
Ok then let’s put a card reader at the pool, hot tub, walking trails, dog park and the beach…. Don’t forget water, sewer and trash. I mean you pay for water, sewer, garbage and electric at home so why not at a campsite? Oh wait… What about wifi?
Here’s why! The campsite competition is not your home! It’s hotels, vacation rentals and Air bnb etc. Do you pay separately for electricity at those? How about at cabins at the same campground? NOPE!
Pro tip. You are already paying for electric and other amenities in your campsite fee. Do you really think an overnight camping spot costs $30-50 per nite just for the space? If a campground operator is unable to meet profit goals at current pricing then raise it.
Charging $ 50 and up for one nite. Just what am l supposed to get for my money. A parking spot ? I can stay in a rest area for free if all l am getting for my money is a place to park.
So true. The nightly rate should encompass all these extra things. Seems like park owners want the nightly rate to be all profit and then make you pay your share of electric, maybe water, etc. on top of that.
Electricity from the power company is WAY cheaper than running your own generator, even if the electric power was marked up by a campground to help pay for the infrastructure. Back in the ’70s when the big gasoline crunch was happening, my boss and I at Corning Glass worked up a comparison chart showing the cost and energy equivalence of a gallon of gas with a gallon of electricity, etc… Would be interesting to come up with a similar chart showing the equivalent cost of a KWH of electricity in comparison with the cost of propane, gasoline in a high efficiency generator, low efficiency generator, etc…
A gallon of electricity?
Yes, it’s actually a pretty simple set of calculations. First, you figure out how much energy in BTUs is in a gallon of fuel oil, then use that to calculate the equivalent amount of energy in a gallon of gasoline, gallon of diesel and lb of propane. You also convert BTU into Kilowatts to find how many KHW of electrical energy is equivalent to a gallon of fuel oil (or whatever). Once you have the equivalent amounts of gasoline, diesel, propane and electricity, you simply plug in the current cost of these energy sources, and voila: Now you know how much a gallon of electricity costs. You can also add formulas to include efficiency ratings of furnaces running on propane, or generators running on gasoline or diesel.
You can also input the energy density of things like crude oil if you like, and you can find out the efficiency losses the power company faces just distributing electricity over all those long wires. It’s been a while since I did this (40 years, I think) but it’s all the same calculations. Yeah, this is geek fun, but it really works.
Mike, I would defer to your vast accumulated knowledge of electrical/RV usage however I would point out that if anyone is interested just go to the many RV forum sites such as the Foretravel and Monaco forums (mostly bigger Class A’s that are energy hogs). There are a tremendous amount of discussions and threads on this very topic. Many that have been written by retired electrical contractors, propane industries executives and I have even seen some done by theoretical physicists using math calculations to determine cost and other associated factors. Point being is that there are way to many factors at any given time to give a definitive answer to the propane vs electricity debate. Location of RV park, cost of fuel in the area, time of year, type of rig just to name a few. Bottom line on this thinking is even if propane were 10% of what electricity costs you would almost always find the RVer opting for the electrical use in an RV park that includes the charge in the nightly fee. I know I would, you are paying a set fee either way whether you use the electrical power or not. Same cost. Metering would be the fair answer but it too has its own problems.
I absolutely do not agree with the electric metering. There are alot of places that you just don’t get value for money and then charge for the electricity on top of that? Now, if your long term, then I can see it…maybe.
It fascinates me that the blame is on people utilizing a service you literally acknowledge as often-included instead of the sites suggesting using power or the companies who grossly overcharge utilities. Those are fascinating priorities.
Has anyone done a comparison of the cost difference between using all electric vs propane stove, furnace, hot water, and refridge.?
Frig is about a dollar a day on electric @ .15 per hwh
I was wondering when camps would start some pushback on “free” electric use. I pay $150 + a month for electricity at home. That averages $5+ a day. Double that to cover inefficient insulation in RVs. Double that to cover the cost of distributed delivery in a campground and you can see how it eats thru the profits and into upkeep. I’m sure that there’s more I don’t know about owning a campground. But “free” anything is a myth.
I don’t know about you but my rv isn’t 2000 sq ft so your comparison for me doesn’t hold water.
I CAN SYMPATHIZE WITH THE PARK OWNERS WITH THE INCREASE OF COST OF ELECTRIC BILLS AS I RECENTLY GOT AN INCREASE IN MY HOME ELECTRIC BILL. SOLUTION I BELIEVE WHAT IS FAIR IS FOR THE PARK OWNERS TO HAVE THE SITES METERED AND PRICED AT A NON PROFIT. RV PARKS AND THEIR PRICING IS ONE OF MANY REASONS I SOLD MY RV, ITS GETTING TO COSTLY. SO NOW IN MY TRAVELS I MAKE RESERVATIONS TO STAY IN RENTAL PROPERTIES. SAFE TRAVELS
You don’t pay your share of electricity at a hotel so why a campsite? This nickel and diming just adds to stress of what should be a relaxing event. Raise your nightly rate if you are not profitable just like you would if your landscape or water costs spiked. If I have to swipe a credit card for electric AND check in like a hotel for a parking spot, then I will just park at a rest stop and run my generator. Ps a 15% increase over a decade is below average cost of living increases. Campers wanting a la cart pricing should camp at barebones parks or at a Walmart. I don’t go to a Hilton and ask how much less is it if I don’t use the pool?
This sounds like another attempt to solve a problem that doesn’t really exist. All amenities including water, electric, bathrooms, pools, dog parks, grills, beaches and walking trails are all used at different rates by different campers. Pick a campsite that most closely matches your needs so you aren’t sharing the cost of an amenity you don’t use. OR meter every site and watch your customers go elsewhere.
I’m glad I boondock. I have everything I need and always find a place to park. No vacancy problems, no pedestal issues, sewer or water. No noise from other campers or their families and or pets, just the two of us enjoying nature. If I want to swim I look for a quiet lake or stream maybe even thermal waters. Starry nights and peace and quiet.
isn’t always the easy when traveling across country.
I agree with some who said go ahead and raise your fee per night. Cover the cost but the minute that you start using resort fees and meterelectric then you become know better than a hotel. I’ll just sell my art rig. some places we have stated are doing like hotels and charge a regular rate per night and then when you get in there they charge fees per day. Not worth it to me anymore.
I stay at a seasonal site in Pennsylvania for the summer. I pay $885 for the six month stay plus electric. My electric bills run anywhere from $27 to $35 a month. I call that a bargain all the way around. My camper has a 30 amp power source.
Wow!! That is a fantastic rate. Not sure what the park looks like? Better stay put and not travel around. This is the cheapest rate I have ever heard of.
That seems to be a cost of about $1 a day for electric. I’d be willing to pay an extra dollar a day for electric.
Charging for electricity at the going rate the campground pays the utility company doesn’t do anything to pay for the campsite power pedestal maintenance. And paying a campground for electricity that’s under 100 volts is just crazy. In fact, they shouldn’t be able to call it a powered campsite unless it can meet basic NEC requiments for voltage and grounding.
This all takes money, which does take a certain amount of management will to implement. Now I understand there’s really no way to force a campground to allocate even 1% of their revenue towards electrical system maintenance and updates, so by the time the electrical system falls apart the campground is faced with spending many hundreds of thousands of dollars at once for a complete electrical system demo and new install. That’s why these campgrounds put off any electrical system upgrades until it’s really too late to work it into a normal maintenance budget.
Hey, I’ve been discussing the idea of campgrounds doing a yearly inspection of their pedestals to check for loose connections, voltage drops, compromised grounds, etc… This would probably only cost between $500 to $1,000 per year in labor for small to medium sized campgrounds, assuming a technician costing $50/hr being able to test 15 pedestals per hour. So a 10-hour shift would test 150 pedestals and cost perhaps $500. And 300 pedestals would take 2 days and cost maybe $1,000 for testing. Then let’s look at spending another $500 to $1,000 on new outlets and such, assuming a 10% failure rate. If the campground manager put a $10 bill in a jar every day, that would be $3,650 per year to pay for electrical testing and maintenance. And that would likely keep the campsite electrical system up and running nicely until it needed to be expanded. But campground accounting is usually a nightmare, so any money coming into the till will go to whatever other emergency is happening right then, and the electrical jar would probably be raided.
No easy answer to this, but I do know that TANSTAAFL (There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) and somebody will need to pay the electric bill as well as the maintenance. And until cold fusion (or some other form of free energy) is invented, the argument over who pays the electric bill will rage on.
In my mind I would rather it be “free” but we all know it’s part of the site cost. My problem with putting a meter in and charging separate for electricity is the campgrounds charge their own rates and do not follow the public service commission rates. They add a cost to the price. I cannot see how that is legal. If they charge the legal rates then I can agree with metering. As far as upkeep of meters, the campgrounds need to include that in the agreed upon fee.
Another great post Mike-and a little humor too.
Personally, If I had a choice of two RV parks, one charging extra for full hookups and one charging nothing extra, I would always choose the RV park who DIDN’T charge extra for full hookups. If the operator nickles and dimes the campers to death, it merely encourages campers to seek out the competition who has a better handle on costs.
Bingo!
Just charge for the electric. Duh!
I live for months at a time in the desert. I don’t need to pay for other people’s electric usage.
METER IT!
ENERGY INDEPENDENT! ?
No different than it will be when healthcare is “free” or college is “free” or any of the other popular vote-buying schemes being touted today. People will not attempt to keep the costs low if they aren’t paying directly.
It really amazes me to read about anyone urgeing folks to save on propane costs and sticking it to the campground then turn right around and gripe about the high cost of campsites. All of this from scrooge’s running around the country in $20,000 to $750,000+ RV’s !!
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though, we have become a free, free, free society who want everything given to them as if it’s some sort of ‘right’ but expect everyone else to pay up.
I believe that it is unconscionable and disingenuous for any individual or organization to promote this type of behavior and then cry foul or claim to be some sort of watchdog for the scrooges amongst us.
It will come to metered campsites and I don’t blame the campgrounds one bit!!
I’m supposed to stand around on the day I check out waiting for someone to read my meter and determine the bill!
Europe used to charge you for hot water…feed it a shilling, farthing, deutsche mark to get hot water.
Says electric rates have gone up 15% in the last 10 years yet campground fee’s have increased about 50-100% in those same 10 years how come?
We are in Florida for six months. Our electric is metered. We have a 50 amp service Class A motorhome. With our water heater, air conditioners, combo washer/dryer, convection oven, electric fireplace, supplemental space heater, and lighting and residential fridge our monthly cost has not yet reached more than $2.50 per day. As I am thinking about it, our lot fee increased by $35 per month for a monthly surcharge by the electric company. That’s an added $1.17 to my daily usage fee which will total $3.67 daily. Just some food for thought.
The issue that campground visitors ignore is that park owners pay for the electric to be there 24/7 even when it is vacant. There is still a meter charge from the electric company. I f you want electric then pay for it.
My wife and I have been on the road for the last 10 months, staying in campgrounds across the country. We require 50 amp service to provide electricity to meet our needs in each campground we stay in (39 to date). I make the reasonable assumption that the campground owner is smart enough to charge a fee that allows the recovery of all expenses plus a profit margin. The nightly rates we have payed across the country have certainly been high enough to cover our electricity usage. It sounds to me like this park owner doesn’t really understand how to run his business.
Parks I have stayed at that meter electricity own the meters. They are not necessarily passing through the cost , but earning income from the electric. We found that out when we bought in the area and found the electric rate was about half of what we were paying at our camp site.
I am curious about your data.. You say that nightly renters or those who don’t pay directly for electricity use nearly twice as much as those who do pay. I would like to understand if you track the type of rigs and service they require as part of your data? (i.e. 30Amp vs. 50Amp). I would guess that your nightly users are in larger rigs that use more service than your long term renters and that it is not simply a matter of trying to use more or being more efficient. If you don’t have enough profit in your campsite the solution is simple. Raise the rates and the campers can choose if the value is there or not. Electricity is not free in these spots it is simply included in the price.
Remember, a “50-amp” shore power connection is actually two separate 50-amp legs which is 100-amps of current at 120 volts. That’s why the maximum power you can supply from a 30-amp shore power outlet is 30 amps x 120 volts = 3,600 watts, while the max power you get from a “50-amp” outlet is 50 amps x 2 legs x 120 volts = 12,000 watts. Also remember that the National Electrical Code, the maximum continuous amperage you can pull through a circuit breaker (and associated wiring and connectors) is 80% of the nominal value. So that’s 24 amps continuous (2,880 watts) from a 30-amp outlet, and 80 amps continuous (40+40) or 9,600 watts from a 50-amp shore power outlet. And those are the numbers you need to use for any max KWH calculations. Of course, continuous power typically only happens on resistive heating loads like electric heaters and such.
We are starting our 7th year as Full-Timers and never considered electricity “free”. We assume it is part of our daily site fee and are using the electricity we have paid for. If a park owner is “giving electricity away” it is either by choice, oversite, or poor management.
I understand the desire to meter electricity for long-term campers; they get a discounted site fee anyway. But if short-term stays are costing you more, then bump up your nightly fees. And most campgrounds already do charge more if you ask for a 50amp site, so this should be taken care of already if you’re a savvy businessman. I hate getting to a campground and finding out they have surcharges for this, that and the other. I really don’t think you should be trying to emulate the airline industry, where the final cost after all the surcharges ends up being more than double the actual cost of the flight. Have a nightly rate at a level that covers the expenses and allows for a profit, post that on your website, and let the RVer decide if they want to stay there for that rate. Exact same thing a hotel does.
For us, a metered pay-what-you-use connection would be great. We have a small 24-foot class B coach. We use electricity just as we would at home, which is to say, conservatively. We turn off the water heater between uses (hand-washing dishes or short showers). We set the thermostat down very low at night or turn it completely off. In short, we treat electrical use like a precious commodity that has an overall “cost” and impact to the community and the environment. We sometimes question why a smaller rig like ours should incur the same camping fee as that of the much larger coaches that clearly use a greater amount of resources.
DL, you don’t have to. Go Boondocking. The problem with your analogy is that there are different fees for different site sizes and amenities. So that usually covers the difference in RV Size. The other side of that is that even though you are conservative in what you consume, everyone else isn’t. I don’t suppose there will ever be a solution that will be satisfactory to everyone.
DL Johnson…We have a Class A, 45′ motorhome and we use power, sewer, and water just as you do…conservatively, just as we did at our Florida home.
Andy I’d be interested in hearing what you think my nightly fee should include.
You upcharge for sewer’s and 50 amp service.
You upcharge for premium sites.
You upcharge for those users who are being billed for their power.
Finally if you were to assume 50% occupancy your electric bill is 80.00 per site per month. less than 2 nights revenu. I understand this is crude but to have a serious conversation additional data is needed. When the coin box appears on the bathroom stall I’m done with my RV. Your enjoying great prosperity with all the RV’s being built (badly) Don’t kill the golden goose.
I usually dry camp, and rely on my batteries and small solar. But sometimes it’s a treat to have power, sewer, and water.
However, if you are going to meter electricity, then the basic camp fee should be lowered. Then people just pay for the electricity they use. For those of us in a small RV, with very little electrical usage, other than for lights and maybe a toaster, we shouldn’t have to foot the bill for the giant RVs with dishwashers, washer/dryers, a tv in every room, blenders, ice makers, coffee makers, vaccums, big air conditioners, etc that suck up power.
However, as for those who want to only pay for the facilities they use, as they don’t use the pool and wifi, etc, why go to the RV sites that have those facilities?
Cost of electricity used to be figured in, so don’t you think it should be figured out before we start getting charged for the usage we incur? Seems like double dipping to me…..
While I can understand where the owner is coming from, I completely disagree with raising rates across the board. The only “fair way” to levy an additional fee is to take the average of the Monthly renters and use that as an average to compute a “per day” daily average. If that per day average is exceeded by anyone (this includes the Monthly renters if they are not metered) then they get charged the difference on the per day average. My only reservation with this is that there are many “seasonal renters” that are only at the campgrounds for the Friday through Sunday periods. I know this because our campground is an “annual rental only”. Using these would seriously decrease the daily average for the campground owner and prove costly to anyone that stays there for the entire time they have rented the spot. The daily average should be based on monthly renters that are at their sites for the entire duration of the month only! That would be the only fair way to do it.
We need more SOLAR users !
Overnight campers may use more electricity in a 24 hr period than those paying monthly but an overnight stay per night is more costly than a monthly rent divided by 30 nights therefore, if the RV Park owner takes that into account, I might conclude that the extra electric is already being paid for. Also, we have been in parks that add a surcharge onto the rate per kWh that the park is being charged by the electric provider. In some states, that is illegal and one particular park that we were staying in, when discovered the owner of the park was required to refund the renter. Obvious this issue is not always clear cut.
Plus when we make reservations through Reserve America we have to pay added fees on top of our camping fees. Then some parks throw on added fees too, some of us only camp as our relaxation time, and live on fixed income so like to keep the costs as low as possible. I will add we try to be conservative just as we are at home…????
As a tenant of an RV park, I expect to fully pay for the costs of my visit, and I am happy to do so. However, I get irritated when something is promised, but not delivered. This happens when the pool is shut down or, worse, the bathrooms are out of order. I am shocked to learn that some RVers use more electricity than others! What is next, monitoring the number of times we visit the bathrooms, or how long we use the showers? RV park managers should concentrate on how to make visits by tenants more pleasant, and less on purported freeloaders.
And then you have those Bad Bad RV manufactures that are selling ALL electric coaches like “hot cakes” !!
They manufacture what the public wants . Blame the public for buying them then
Andy, How do costs compare between o’nighters and extended stay on a month by month basis? I would bet that in Aug, or other summer months, both use the same amount.
Sounds totally fair to me…..we are adults, and should be willing to take responsibility for our behavior! I would accept metering, because I appreciate having nice RV parks to go too…..
My view is that electricity, water, maintenance and so on are all part of being in business. If the owners start charging for everything separate it will just be a mater of time and they will increase the cost of utilities to make a profit on them. If I don’t want to pay electric does that give me the right to run my generator. Will the owners lower the lot rental cost because I now pay my own electric? I don’t think so. In my view it’s no different than an all you can eat buffet. If I choose to only eat salad at the buffet that’s my choice. If I choose to only eat lobster that’s my choice. I know the price of the buffet before going in, what I do in there is my choice, period. I won’t stay at campground that has separate charges for all the amenities period. Whats next water, pool, fishing, walking trails?
“The cost of utilities to make a profit on them ” ? They are in business “to make a profit” What’s wrong with that ? Yes for years I had a meter on my ( and every other) seasonal site . Yes We paid more per kilowatt used than the local electric supplier was charging them. (Profit ). Their added cost was to read, record the readings , and add them to everyone else’s seasonal bills. What wasn’t mentioned yet was the electric supplier only provided power to the entrance. The owners had to pay for every telephone pole , wire, transformers, switches etc. needed. They have to be replaced in time . THUS THE NEED FOR PROFIT !
I have a 34′ pull behind. We are the old breed of camper that like to be out in nature. We have watched the fees soar over the last few years. I feel it is due to supply and demand. More campers and deeper pockets. This in itself has hammered the moderate income family camper. I think there should be a baseline of power usage that is gratuitous for the fees charged. The challenge is real to give that old fashion camping experience to the younger generation. Let’s use some thoughtfulness when making these decisions.
Exactly
The problem is most of today’s younger parents and kids don’t want the old camping experience. It is like being at home but in a different place. Many are not into hiking or fishing. It interferes with the internet and social media posting.
Force me to deal with the hassle of meter reading and seperate payments for less than a one week stay and I will simply go elsewhere.
I believe elsewhere will follow suit eventually.
Have the rv park fee include a reasonable amount of electricity. If you use more than the baseline, you pay more in fees. There is no free lunch.
I predict that more and more campgrounds are going to begin metering, so best to arm yourself with calculations. If anyone is interested I could write an iPhone app or create an online spreadsheet that would compare the cost of propane and electricity, plus factor in an efficiency rating for each brand and model of RV furnace. That would give you a SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess) to determine if it’s more expensive to heat with electricity or propane at a particular campground. Yeah, I know you want the app to be free, but apps cost money to publish so at the least I would have to put in a few ads or charge a minimal fee. Or I can create an online spreadsheet that wouldn’t cost anything to publish and also be Android happy, but then you’ll need to use a little cellular or wifi bandwidth to access it. Sorry, but there’s no such thing as a free lunch. What do you think?
Good idea Mike. I was wondering about the cost of my propane usage averaged for each stay. I only refill once a year anyway but I am one of the offenders of electric usage by using my fake fireplace. The propane furnace heats the rv much quicker and more completely…so when we’ve been away and it’s really cold in there I turn the furnace on. It can also be regulated much more easily by the thermostat. I bought one of those cheap little 2-peice hemostats for the fireplace but it had a window of + or – 5 degrees or so- not good.
Here’s a question for Andy: How much of an increase would you have to charge for each spot to help reasonably mitigate your shortfall?
I am a full timer and I travel from campground to campground never staying more than a month at any one campground and I’ve seen all examples of utility misuse: air conditioners running all day when occupants are out sightseeing all day; watching people washing dishes with full sinks and the water running full blast to rinse; awning lights and bogey lights running all night. How many of these people would chastise family members for doing the same thing at the old stick n mortar? My father used to do that lot!
Why do we think we are owed something for free that we pay for in our own homes?? I for one would rather pay for actual use of utilities than be charged a flat fee that includes paying some of what another camper wastes just because it is free. My father often said that there is no free lunch.
The use of electricity is a variable expense for the campground owner that is hard to budget for. If the owner can’t make a profit, he or she will get out the business. Think it’s getting harder to find sites to use now??
I would PREFER to be at a metered site. Pay a lower “base rate” for the site and then, pay only for the electricity that I use. I expect that many parks would have to upgrade their pedestals (which should be a good thing). I’ve used metered sites in the past and know to take a meter reading before I plug in (I snap a photo on my iPhone). I snap a second photo when I unplug. Show the photos to the camp office staff and, I pay for just the electricity that I used.
Here is my spin on this matter. I have no problem with a meter. However the RV parks or resort has lets say established a fee of 700.00 a month with electric . Ok now the same parks are going to meter your electricity and not adjust down for the built in charge they have on electricity . The parks are becoming very greedy due to supply and demand. It will force more folks to boondock or completely give it up. Hope this makes sense!
I have no problem with metered sites when we travel. Yes, take a pic of the meter before and after. Hopefully, if the park is metered, the pedestals should be up to electrical standards for our safety. The only reason I would leave the A/C on is because we have 2 cats that stay in the camper when we leave for a few hours, and the outside temp is hovering between 90 degrees and 110 degrees West of the Mississippi. Meter the sites.\!
We operate a little Mom and Pop resort, with 5 seasonal cabins and 14 campsites in northern MN, and are relatively new to the RV thing. At $159.75 a pop for meters, it’s easier for us to charge an across the board fee for electric. That being said, I cringe when I see/hear the A/C running in a camper in August, and the tenants aren’t even in camp! The occasional tenant, who lives 150 miles away and comes once or twice a month, paying the same as the local who’s here daily is a travesty, but what are we to do?
The A/C is usually running for a pet(s) inside and so the owners don’t return to a warm RV. Still wasteful.
They may have pets in that RV in that August heat.
I just recentrly purchased a campground and the wastefulness of the electricity astounds me. I am converting the pedestals to metered. I believe we can install the meters ourselves easily. The cost for the conversion kit and the meters for the pedestals is going to run under $75 per site.
Do RV parks charge different rates for summer users than for winter users? Of course not. So why should they complain about heating with electricity during the winter any more than they would complain about AC usage? They know that restricting AC usage will cost them customers. I feel that I am paying an upcharge for a site with 50 amp electric service, to use that same service should be expected. Metering for daily users is going to just be an excuse to hit renters with exorbitant electrical charges.
I would prefer to pay for my own usage. I’ve seen people sitting outside their campers, door wide open with the air running – in a state park!
I see this issue as another way to chase customers away, and out of the RV lifestyle. Along with RV resorts that fill half of the sites with little houses and glamor tents, RV’ing as we know is going bye-bye.
The cost of running a camp ground never goes down. It ALWAYS goes up. Taxes go up, utilities go up, maintenance goes up, repairs go up. Who would think that rental costs should go down or even remain the same? The cost of life continues to go up and so will staying at RV parks or campgrounds. And yes the cost of staying at a camping “RESORT” will go up even more! Prepare for it, plan for it or boondock (if you can find a spot) but the days of “CHEAP” camping are just about over.
My Aliner Popup doesn’t have a built in heater. If I have hookups, I use a shoebox sized electric heater from walmart, only when I am in the trailer. I do have the “Cool Cat” which probably uses a lot more power. Without hookups, I run in a gas line and use my Buddy heater.
Quit whining! Running a campground is a commercial business, I assume. If you’re not a non-profit, and you can’t figure out how to balance demand, income and expenses and still appeal to your target market, perhaps you should look for a different line of work.
We spent last year on the road traveling the country and staying in a variety of campgrounds, from Mom and Pop to resorts. Not once did I worry about whether or not they were covering their costs.
I have long said that the cheap skates are going to ruin it for everyone with this sort of an attitude. If I built an RV park today everything in it would be coin-operated the power coming into your RV the water even the dump station everything would be an alicart pricing and it would be clean op. for use
Walnut Hills Campground in Staunton, VA is one of the nicest, cleanest, most well designed places we have stayed. We were in the area pictured in this article overlooking the small lake and all the constant duck and bird activity. Very peaceful, quiet and relaxing.
This comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Sounds like a commercial to me. I hope you paid someone to post this?
Hi, Tom. That article was written by Andy Zipser, the owner of the Walnut Hills Campground and RV Park in Staunton, Virginia (as indicated at the top of the article), which Ronl mentioned. So, yes, it’s quite appropriate that he gave his opinion of that campground (which also happens to be one of editor Chuck Woodbury’s favorite campgrounds). So, just because someone has good things to say about a campground it’s because we paid them to say it, and it’s thus a “commercial”? Sheesh! —Diane at RVtravel.com
Sorry Diane – But I agree with Tom. This comment section is pointed at the metered electric issue. The comment praising a campground seems out of place and really sounds like hyping the campground. This is an open forum, but come on. The commenter never even mentions electricity. Had they said “And the electric is free” OK but nada!
I wouldn’t mind paying for my electricity, when the parks go back to $15. a night, or $20. a night for the nice parks with cement pads and pools and working jacuzzis. But paying $75. a night for a piece of dirt covered in ants and ticks and then electric is ridiculous.
I have no issue with paying for what I use. At a site we stay at a lot, we do not pay electric for a month but pay substantially more for a 3 month stay. Since they have meters, we monitor our use and have never, ever, used more than 60 dollars in electricity. But the 3 month rate adds almost 300 dollars a month. The park is basically ripping us off. We agree to the contract so we have no right to complain. But if they want to add electric cost, then make the nightly cost more reasonable. And make the cost of electricity fair. Do not add surcharges, meter reading fees, handling fees, and a host of other garbage just to make me pay more. I know we are not the average camper. We actually try to use only what we need. And we have also heard the folks say just use it, it is included. I do not agree with them and they are the ones that cause us all issues. Just my thoughts.
If you want me to pay seperate for metered electricity on stays of less than one week, then I want a discount for all the stuff we never use. We never use pools, hot tubs, restrooms, tennis courts, etc.
We just want a space with FHU. Everything else we want is self contained or not inside the RV park.
Now on **discounted** stays of one month metered electric is fine. I simply have no desire to be waiting around for meter reading, and waiting to pay the electric bill on the way out for short stays.
I don’t have not problem paying for what I use. In fact, I would like the writer to expound on the differential of power used by “one nighters” compared to extended stay campers. His comment did not surprise me at all. A graph or chart of usage might open some eyes. Along that line, one thing I find is CG’s seem to feel they have to pander to the “family” camping trip and have all the stuff for the kid, and that costs money. Maybe that is because so many want the seasonal family campers. I prefer a simple campground- but my kids are grown. A camper with a permanent porch and cabana is not camping in my opinion. It is a cheap cabin on a campsite. But that’s my opinion – kill me if you want!
I think about my income and the cost increases of everything over the last 40 years. Camping is still pretty cheap. If camping had increased by the same ratio as the cost of a car or house or your wages, you would be paying well over $100 per night on average. There is no free lunch – pay me now or pay me later. PEACE
The same reason Motel 6 is no longer $6 a night. Most chain motels are over $100 plus a night.
I have already commented but I will add a little more. I think everyone should realize that the profit margin in a campground is not making anyone rich. If it was, we would have an abundance of campgrounds and available campsites. Think about the cost to build a 50 or 100 site campground with the amenities many want, a pool, individual showers and big store, playgrounds and a fishing pond plus level concrete pads and full hookups. I am guessing $1MM- $1.5MM for a 50 site campground. (and I might be low) What do you think it would cost to build a single site like this at your S&B location. $10K? $20K? A CG is not cheap to build, now staff it 24-7 with several people, life guards, store keepers, etc and then pay income and property sales tax plus insurance to cover our sue happy population. Now pay the loan you took out to build the place. I have never seen a rich owner.
Then you pull in with your $50K – $200K rigs and complain about paying for power.
Have any of you gone to Disneyland in the last few years. Now that’s sticker shock! Don’t stay at the CG if you are not happy. Your choice!
Went to metered electrical sites 35 years ago for all seasonal campers – just could not keep up with the increasing ‘free’ electrical use. Difference between conservative sites and energy hogs was in some cases as much as 8:1. Now beginning to meter water/sewerage on seasonal sites. The newer large units are not camping, they are movable mobile homes and the fees should reflect that. The days of simple family camping,for the most part, went away years ago.
Oh here we go again what you deem camping is (or should be) and what I deem Camping is.
I am an RV’er not a camper.
Different strokes for different folks.
I don’t drive a camper I drive an RV.
I do not see the parks going to individual short term electric metering here in Louisiana because the Louisiana Public Service Commission does not allow the resale of electricity by any non-utility. Over my tenure with an in-state electric utility (37 years) I have seen many occasions with large rental spaces in buildings wishing to sub meter space as well as with a marina making requests to sub meter, only to see them all rejected by the LaPSC. Only another electric utility would be allowed to sub meter, and I don’t see the likelihood of a campground meeting the requirements of the State Law and LaPSC reporting requirements. Since water systems and waste water systems also fall under LaPSC jurisdiction, I don’t see water ever going to a sub metered reality here in Louisiana, either.
Only a matter of time where it will be legal. Thousand Trails has been charging a 3 dollar daily extra fee for years for 50A service, and that is acceptable to me. A flat one time fee for electric service might be good, or some fair way to assess the actual fees. It should be noted, many RV’s are huge, need 50A service, and are decked out like a sticks and bricks home. So usage and amounts used are going up for those too. And yes, guilty, use the electric element on my heating system way more than my diesel burner, but then it’s not nice when campers around me come over and complain about the diesel smell. Suggest we all learn to live with systems installed in RV’s since I think the propane devices stink as well.
Can you give me some thoughts on what vehicle is the best to pull a 30’ 5th wheel? We heard of lots opinions from Ram, Ford etc. what is used most of the time and why?
Thanks
The thing that I find funny is that ad for “cheap heat”. They want you to spend $1500. to add an electric element to your propane furnace. Most people I meet rent by the month, so they’re paying for the power. The ones who pay by the day or week may get their power included, but they will be a long time paying off their “cheap heat”.
Is renting a campsite much different than renting a hotel room? I am 49 years of age and bought my first camper in 2016. Way before I got involved in camping, campers have had air conditioners, microwaves and other electronics. Since campers have these items, I assumed that individuals used them as they pleased, as we do in our homes and hotels. I believed that using these items was normal. When I bought my camper, I bought one that had all these conveniences with the expectation of using them. Therefore, I use these items as little or as much as I want. I don’t turn on the air conditioning with the windows open and I don’t leave the lights and TV on all day long, but I use these items as I would at my home or hotel, no more or no less. My house is heated 24/7 during the winter and cooled 24/7 during the summer. This happens whether I’m home or not. When I am staying at a hotel, I do the same. We all do. When I stay in the camper, why would it be any different? When I rent a hotel room for x dollars, I use the electricity I need for heating and cooling, TV viewing and cell phone charging. I use the water I need for showers. I flush waste down the sewer as needed. I’m not charged separately for the amount I use. It’s included. The fact that I don’t pay separately for utilities doesn’t make me use more or less of the utilities. There’s no “but its free” mentality. I don’t turn the heat way up or the cooling way down or take 30 minute showers or leave the TV and lights on when I leave the room. I believe this is how the majority of people who stay at hotels behave with some using less and some using more, some rooms are bigger, some rooms are smaller, some rooms have big families, some rooms have one person, some people are more conservative, others are irresponsible. When I stay at a campground for x dollars, I expect to use the electricity, water and sewer, if available, as needed, no more or no less. I believe this is how the majority of today’s RVers behave, with some using more and some using less, some having small campers, some having big campers, some with big families using more utilities, some with small families using less. I don’t know the economics of a campground any more than I do for a hotel. The business owner is responsible for understanding the economics and charging a reasonable fee that covers their expenses and provides a reasonable profit. If a campsite cost $25 a night, then I’m going to assume that this satisfies the economics of that campground based on the majority of its renters and as the campground’s costs increase, I’m not going to be surprised if the campsite cost $30 next year. As a consumer, I do not like nickle and diming. I prefer to pay a reasonable flat fee that covers everything. When I stay at a hotel, my nightly charge may include the use of the pool, fitness center, business center, etc. and I may or may not use these items. As a consumer, I have the choice of staying at a bare bones hotel or at a hotel that has many amenities. Campers have the same choice. I don’t see a difference between renting a campsite or renting a hotel room other than when I rent a campsite, I’m bearing the expense of providing my own room, bathroom and heater/air conditioner.
Many CG that I stay in DO charge an extra fee for 50 amp service. I don’t have a problem with that as I have 4 TV’s, a residential refer, a fireplace, 2 electric toilets, aqua hot that can run on electric or diesel or a combo of both, toaster, blender, 2 iPads, 2 cell phones, a lap top, electric clock, on and on.
Whoever said owning an RV is a cheap way to travel it not true.
By the time you amortize the initial cost of the RV the maintenance. (Don’t forget the tires) the fuel, the storage, the insurance, it’s not cheap. Then add for the cost of CG ( or not if you stay on BLM land) I don’t blame CG owners charging extra and I would do the same if I owned a campground wouldn’t you?
What I object to is being crammed into a space that is so narrow I can hear the toilet flush (or worse). At least give me a corner space and yes I have been charged extra for that too. I have Also been charged extra to set in the front row for an ocean view site as compared to the back rows with no view for less money.
What’s the other thing people say “nothing in life is free”?
Oh maybe it’s staying on BLM land. I bet actually that all taxpayers in America are paying for that too😊.
You are so right! Well said!
👍
I read your post with interest as we’re thinking about building an RV park designated for 55 & Older residents where we can also have up to 20% single adults with no children. We have a big 5th wheel and are guilty of leaving the AC on when we go out as it takes a while to cool it down and after the first RV we had blew up (fridge exploded) we bought an electric heater to avoid another gas explosion. I don’t think the idea is to make money from charging for utilities (or at least it’s not for us) but to cover the costs of the utilities and if an individual is staying long term, the more frugal they are, the less they’ll pay. With what is being charged even on a monthly rate here in Texas, it’s $400 to $650/month less than even the smallest apartment and no long-term committment so I still think living in an RV has got to be cheaper than renting or owning and paying property taxes. A mortgage is a mortgage regardless of whether it’s for an RV or house!
HOTELS IF I leave the heat on 78 and leave for the day, the HOUSEKEEPER puts the heat down and makes my bed and cleans the bathroom etc and so I think you are talking apples and oranges. THERE are MANY RVers who do say, use our electric heat, why waste YOUR propane when you are not paying for electric so use it for heat and everything you can like hot water heater etc. THERE is a sense that if you are not paying for it, USE IT which is now going to bite us in the butt. I do not resent campground owners charging for electric, I understand it. I would like the campground to reduce the cost of the site by that amount that was assessed for normal electric use and let us all then use the electric as we please and PAY FOR IT as we use it instead of the campground holding the bag for those selfish people who leave Air Conditioners on all day long even though they are not in the RV all day long but “it’s free” so why not kind of thinking. SHAME SHAME SHAME ON ALL OF THOSE WHO DO THAT!
What’s going to happen when All Electric RV’s start hitting the market and need to charge up the batteries overnight? That’s going to be a huge increase in electricity usage, in order to replace gasoline & diesel. Believe only solution would be individually metered sites. It may also be possible to recharge batteries with generators but must campers would probably prefer to plug in.
Nothing in life is free. Pay me now or pay me later.
One reason people camp is because “it is an affordable alternative ” to staying in hotels. There are of course many other reasons campers love to camp. My point to owners would be, don’t price yourself out of that advantage. We bring our own rooms, we maintain our own sites.
My other thought would be, if you start charging for electricity, are you going to reduce the rate for the site? The original rate obviously included an allowance for the electricity used. We know you weren’t “giving it to us”!
THE point is that people are selfish and use the electric for heat AND they go out and leave their air conditioners ON high for the day thinking nothing of what that costs and NOW it is coming back to bite us in the butt because some are selfish, MAYBE it is best if we pay for our electric so we are aware of what we are using and not leaving things like A/C on for no good reason but “I like it really cool when I get back from a swim” WELL now you have caused us all to have to pay for our electric. RV living is NOT inexpensive UNLESS you live out boondocking, then it is cheaper. Maybe, we could get X amt of free electric which would be a normal amt expected and anything over on the meters is coming out of your pocket.
Paying for what you are using is appropriate. Meter readings every month are necessary except for the one or two nights stays. Business is not giveaway.
No different than having an “open bar ‘. When the consumers think “It’s for free ” they over order ! Just look at the tables at any “open bar ” event. A lot more glasses ( still partially filled ) fill the table tops . The only time that the amount of electricity can’t be charged is when an overnight person comes in late and leaves early. It’s only a matter of time before they all install metered electric meters ( like parking meters ) where the consumer slides their charge card to turn on the electricity.
The same people who don’t want electric metering would have a screaming hissy fit if their Utility Company started billing every home an equal amount. They seem to think that the small users should subsidize the big energy hogs. What the RV Park owners should do is lobby the Dept of Energy? to make low interest, or no interest, government loans to upgrade the parks to digital meters that can accept credit cards(like gas pumps) for billing and having at least 10 spaces dedicated for Electric Vehicles to come in and charge up. Billions are being spent on installing charging stations around the country, why not use the parks that already have the power and parking area that already exists?