By Chuck Woodbury
EDITOR
Our story in last Sunday’s newsletter titled “Is new self-service RV park the wave of the future” has already been read 102,000 times with more than 100 comments.
The fact is, the Sullivan, Missouri, Self-Park RV park is not the wave of the future, as many of those who read the article commented. The basic idea is good, one that we continue to promote: a fully-automated, self-serve RV park (actually a chain of them is needed for the idea to work) aimed at RVers looking for a safe, overnight stop with an electrical hookup (to power a residential fridge and air conditioner). In our proposal, a stay would be limited to a night or two.
Plug in, go to sleep, get up, leave.
If you’ve traveled the Ohio Turnpike you’ve seen such overnight “parks.” Insert a $20 bill into a machine and you’re set. It’s fully automated.
When traveling I-90 west of Wall, South Dakota, look for the 24 Express RV Campground in tiny Wasta. It offers pull-through sites, each with 30- and 50-amp hookups for $20 a night (it was $5 dollars a night for years, then $10 for awhile).
The new Self-Park RV park in Sullivan, Missouri, is a commendable effort, but it misses the mark. An overnight stay (16 hours) with full hookups is $39. We believe that’s excessive.
An RVer can stay for up to 28 days at a discounted nightly rate. Allowing stays that long sabotages the idea, reducing the number of available spaces for folks just passing through — and that’s the type of park that’s urgently needed. A park that tries to cater to both short- and long-term residents is like betting $20 on both even and odd on the Roulette table. You win. You lose. You cannot win.
I can tell you, and I believe you will agree, that few RVers who stop for the night at Walmart will pay $39 to sleep overnight elsewhere, no matter how “automated” the process.
And, really, who needs full hookups for one night? Installing water and sewer hookups hugely increases the cost of building a park (and forces much higher camping fees), and requires jumping through a lot more environmental hoops trying to get a permit to even build it.
The owner of this park, Jim Turntine, who also is part-owner of the small town it’s in, should have simply provided 30- and/or 50-amp hookups and a flat parking pad. A reasonable fee, we suggest, would be $20 a night for a site with 30-amp electricity ($25 for 50 amps), and $15 for dry camping, and limit the stay to a night or two. He might not make a fortune on one such park, but add others 200 miles apart along major Interstates and he’ll earn a fortune.
A major corporate sponsor could provide significant financial support. Geico Insurance already sponsors 14 rest areas in Arizona, with the little lizard prominent on the road signs. What a brilliant way that would be for the sponsor to show RVers how much they care about them. . . and their safety.
Turntine doesn’t even need to buy real estate for each location: It’s already there if he knows where to find it.
I am still willing to help publicize anyone who decides to build such a chain of safe, barebones, self-service parks. I’ll invest if it’s done right, and suspect a lot of readers would, too.
My friends Bob Zagami and John DiPietro interviewed Tim Turntine about his park on their Facebook Live program. Watch here.
##RVT931b
Although I agree with you Chuck that we RVers need a safe easy overnight spot at a minimal cost that I can plug into and get a nights sleep, but it’s possible Tim is tapping a different nitch that may exist. We often like to stay in an area to visit friends, family or just see the sites and need a place to park our roving house but don’t need the pool, laundry, showers, or the rec room. In other words we don’t need a $60-$80 resort. Just a place to come home to at the end of the day to have dinner and sleep. These are out there but they’er full of long timers working in the area. Tim’s idea limits that and should open up space for the rest of us. His idea may or may not fly and only the market will determine that. I do like your idea of getting sponsors for overnight spaces and I hope the free market shows enough demand for that to attract more sponsors.
James Beirlein — Jim Turntine’s park may do well for him. But in my opinion it is not going to provide a valuable service for most RVers.
I agree that his price seems high, but his infrastructure and maintenance expenses probably dictates such a cost. I mention maintenance because wherever you have sewage hookups you’re going to have spills and blockage. Then there’s damage to the electrical pedestals. You have to have an on-site attendant or an elaborate and expensive automated system to control deadbeats from staying without paying. The grounds need regular attention for trash and mowing. You mentioned security would be provided by cameras but a camera alone provides Zero security unless there’s a human coefficient ready to “instantly” step into the breech Kansas has had to close more than one rest area on I70 in Western Kansas when that section of road achieved the highest crime rate in the state. This town’s close proximity to St Louis nearly ensures crime will be a concern. IHO
I wonder if the comments about a $20 price per night is realistic for an owner to make a fair return on their investment. On hot days, what’s the cost alone of two roof top air conditioners running, plus all of the rest of electrical use in the RV? Manufacturers are always advertising converting propane furnaces and hot water heaters to electric, so the cost is passed on to the campground. Regardless if the campground is self-service, there are still all the costs of maintenance, taxes, trash removal, accounting, insurance, and legal, just to name a few. And then there’s the amortization of the original investment and interest cost of the mortgage loan. At $20, margin would seem to be very low, if a profit could be made at all. Entrepreneurs won’t invest in new campgrounds unless they can make a reasonable return on their investment.
There are ways to make this work, John Wilkins, that you have not considered. It can be done on $20 a night and be profitable.
This venture may not work or it may work (I don’t think so personally), but it is a good try. What will Tim and the industry learn from it that can be applied to the next venture? Failure is a part of learning and success can be defined in a lot of ways.
I would just be happy to have a place to park, free of big trucks. If we’re on the go, we don’t need to hook up to anything. Maybe we’re in the minority on this, but that’s my way to travel to and from different destinations.
Free of transport trucks and a flat paved surface, off the highway, for $10/nights is all that is needed. After all, that is what a Wal-Mart parking lot is. Keep it simple and it will be simple to operate.
I’m in agreement with you Chuck the price is to high for us for overnight, especially if Walmart is within 15 miles or any other business that wants my business. Where ever we stop overnight we always return the hospitality buy shopping while there which I think is only fair. We carry our own water so we don’t need a water hook up, we start our trips with the gray/black tanks empty so sewer connections aren’t needed. Possibly a pay as you go electric meter instead of a flat fee for those who use less electricity than others. All we are looking for is a quiet safe place to sleep.
I like that idea of a pay-as-you-go electric meter as long as it cuts off your ($) charge once the plug is removed. That way, no one else can pull in right after you leave & hook up on your dime. Also, if a traveler only needs a 5-6 hr. nap, that’s all he’ll be paying for; not a 12/24hr fee.
Personally I will steer clear of pavement awning to awning parking like that operating in Missouri -the subject of this article, regardless of price. If “price” is of major importance RVing may not be the game to be a participant in. Rving is a very expensive/excessive luxury.
But,I go back to why my lady of over 50 years and I leave the security, peace, & convenience etc of a beautiful home with all the amenities one could ever want in a life. That would be to discover and ENJOY places unknown, which I will not expand on here, except to suggest I think most folks share the reasons.
If there’s to pieces of reasons puzzle missing – why am out there anyway?
We seek the peace of small out of the way, off the beaten track attractions, campgrounds, towns and the occasional city like Boise Idaho (one of the all around finest places on earth in our opinion if you need a city) and most of all real people.
Our endeavour is to get far away from social dysfunction, whining, complaining, loud people, exterior TV’s blaring away, the emotionally needy & the cram and jamb of RV’s in rows with owners lost inside with their electronic baby sitters. That’s is not us, never will be.
The good news is that rvers come in all shapes, colors, sizes, incomes and tastes… and we live in a country where we are free to choose the style of rving that fits our needs, whether that means boondocking in the middle of nature or spending a month at a trailer park just outside the city. All good.
I think you’re wrong to dismiss this park as “missing the mark”. $39 might seem excessive to some, but I see it as a replenishing stop, where I can dump tanks, fill tanks, take a leisurely hot shower, and pull out the next morning refilled and refreshed. As for the price; 60″ TVs sold for $2000++ just a few years ago, and now can be bought for less than $500. That’s because the idea caught on. If this park in Sullivan is successful, others will follow, and competition will drive the market. I, for one, plan to visit this park and use it as an oasis.
BTW I lived in the St Louis/St Charles MO area from 1967 to 2017 and traveled by RV to SW MO often. I spent many a night at the Walmart in Sullivan. That is, until they hung height-barriers at all the entrances, which precluded trucks and RVs from using the parking. I haven’t visited that Walmart since they installed the barriers. Now I live in Stockton (SW MO) and go the opposite direction, so there’s a good chance I’ll be taking advantage of this new RV park in the near future.
Just Building a small RV Park will cost you $500,000-$1,000,000 +++
You still need Employees, Maintenance and Security..
That’s a lot of $20.00 Bills to get your money back..
$40.00 ish is in line with Return on Investment..
I like the idea if it is safe, clean and quiet. Takes 3-5 days to get to your destination sometimes. Count me in!
Here’s a older article about owning an RV Park..(Double the listed Costs.)
2001
https://money.cnn.com/2001/04/09/sbstarting/q_rv/
Hi Steve, I’m confused by your analysis. By any measure, the costs of this proposed park are less than the costs for a standard, fully staffed RV park. No onsite staff, I doubt very much any ‘security staff’. Just a parking lot with utilities, and they should not be providing sewer for such an operation. However, given that the major variable costs of an RV park are staff costs, and this design has none, why would they ‘require’ the same fee structure as a staffed RV campground? They are misreading the market: it’s a parking lot for 1-2 night stands, not a campground. Travelers have other much lower cost options. This is not a “Park”, its a parking lot with some capital investment. At $20 per night, assuming 20 sites and a conservative 50% occupancy, that’s $73K cash flow a year. At that price point, it would generate good, steady income. If the owner can’t build a parking lot with electricity and water (no sewer) at a cost that works with that cash flow, then he’s working with the wrong contractors. He needs to meet the market where it is at, not engage in business fantasies.
When we are on our way to somewhere else and need an overnight stay, Rest Areas are our 1st option, easy in/out with restroom, somewhat level and free. Our 1 factory installed battery will get us thru the night running the fridge, water pump, a couple of lights and furnace, if needed. But temps in the 80’s or higher during the summer requires at least running 1 ac, so an easy in/out automated parking area with electric would be great. $20/night would be very reasonable and something we would support. This set up would be profitable to the owner if in the right location. I like the idea of a chain of these along interstate systems, especially between major cities/destinations.
oops, you may hear from Geiko. Yes, technically a lizard but per Geiko’s play on words it’s a gecko (belonging to the infraorder Gekkota). A funny fact; Geckos are unique among lizards in their ability to communicate vocally. I’m sure they would have a lot to say.
“ if you build it, they will come “ and pay whatever it costs……….. or not. As much as we would all like to pay less for everything, most of the time it’s not us that suffer when a business fails. As mentioned already, if the demand for these parks is high, more will appear and competition will possibly lower prices until the owners can’t make money, then they will close up. The last few years the RV industry has been booming, filling campgrounds and parks to capacity. But things can change in a hurry. If you’ve been around long enough, you have seen campgrounds shuttered due to lack of business. Right now I don’t see much of a downside to more RV parks, regardless of what they charge as most of the places we like to go are booked months in advance. Happy Trails
Our 65 campground year was $42.50 a night average. Decent good rated campgrounds with amenities, local attractions and employees for emergencies. $39 does seem a little high for a parking lot spot.
I continue to find it interesting that there prevails a us vs. them in relation to campground owners and their proposed greed. I suggest that R V Travel do an investigative piece on the costs associated with building and maintain a campground. Most are small individual owners trying to make a living in an industry they love. What is a fair return on investment. Are campground owners allowed to make a living wage for the long hours they put in everyday? Are they allowed to recover the utility costs and insurance costs? I think you can do a better job than just say the cost per night is too high. Truck stops and rest stops are not campgrounds. Try starting a campfire at the next truck stop you stay in.
it’s about time someone did a comprehensive story on the campground industry. Not all are big companies waiting to separate you from your cash. Yes I am a former campground owner in the southwest who did not make a fortune.
Great suggestion, Gregg. And that’s exactly why we’re running the series from Machelle and AJ James, “Building an RV Park from scratch.” Here’s a link to the article from yesterday’s RV Travel newsletter: https://www.rvtravel.com/building-an-rv-park-weve-made-some-changes/ We’re very fortunate to have Machelle updating us every couple of weeks on their journey. They’re hoping to have some camping spots at AJ’s Getaway RV Park open by the Fourth of July. Woo hoo! 😀 —Diane at RVtravel.com
Will they be providing a cost analysis at some point? If they have already, part way through, I guess I’ve missed it.
Hi, Connie. Here’s a quote from Machelle’s article a few weeks ago: “To keep you in the loop, I want to share how much opening a campground really costs with fees and whatnot. This zoning change has a $300 application fee plus a per-RV-unit fee, so this fee was $540 that we had to pay the local Planning & Zoning Department.” Here’s a link to that post: https://www.rvtravel.com/building-an-rv-park-we-submitted-the-papers-to-p-z/ So, I expect that Machelle will be supplying more info regarding costs as they encounter them, but she hasn’t posted a “cost analysis” at this point. And here’s a link to their posts so far: https://www.rvtravel.com/?s=Building+an+RV+Park+from+scratch If you have a question, you can write it in the Comments section under her posts and Machelle will respond. Thanks for your interest. 😀 —Diane at RVtravel.com
This is not a campground. It’s just a wide spot in the road with electrical hook ups. It offers nothing. And i doubt you can have a campfire here. Since I’m one of the US’s I woundn’t pay $39.00 for a wide spot in the road. Might and have paid that for a camping space tho.
I’m not a campground owner, nor have I ever been one and I totally agree with you. I’m so tired of hearing campgrounds are greedy. If they don’t like it, find some investors willing to spot you a half a million or more and see what you would charge per site. I personally think this type of “campground” will take hold and have it’s own niche, just like all the different types of campgrounds we have now. There is no one size fit all RVer, so why should there be a one size fit all type of campground? If you don’t like this type of set up, don’t stay there. I really wish people would stop trying to pigeon-hole RVer’s into what they think they should be and stop all the crying already.
I agree totally with Chuck. They miss the mark. When traveling on a multi-day trip on the super slab (something I endeavor not to do), I want cheap, safe and quiet when I park. You don’t get that at a truck stop and certainly not at a rest stop if you can find one that lets you overnight.
Just give me a paved slot with two white lines to park in and an electric hook up, I’ll dump sewage when I get to my destination. Done. What would I pay for that? Maybe $10 a night. Any higher I might find a Walmart or Cracker Barrel or wide spot in the road. .
Would be glad to pay $20 a night but no more. Electric is all that’s needed so as to run ac on hot nights plus frig. so not to use propane. Walmarts are great but when it’s hot have to over night in a campground cause I do not want to run generator over night.
Make it a la cart, users can choose from a menu of services and pay for only what they want. Possibly a more sustainable, profitable business model which could be easily franchised.
$20 = 30 amp
$25 = 50 amp
$5 = sewer
$5 = water
$5 = cable TV
$5 = throttled WIFI (to prevent streaming)
$10 = unlimited WIFI
Day 2 – repeat
One central sewer & water set up, no need to have at each site.
No need for bathrooms or showers, both are already on board every RV.
My cost would be $20. Every time. 🙂
My changes to the concept:
$24/night for up to 4 persons and 1 or 2 pets.
3 nights MAX.
50/30/20amp and water on a level concrete pad.
No sewer at site, but 2 nice level dump stations.
Reservations no more than 24hrs in advance.
Daily human supervision to ensure site upkeep, trash collection, etc.
Some visitor parking.
ENFORCE the rules.
It doesn’t have to be scenic or super wide, just a decent place to stop for a night or 2 and then on the way.
Start at Philadelphia, Rte 30 (Lincoln Hwy). Stops every 200 miles across the country to Ca.
I would never stay for any thing over $20 to $25 a night and all I need is a 20 amp plug no water or sewer. To make money put in self serve items such as filtered water and other coin operated units and a dump station that takes money to open it and as soon as you remove your drain it closes .
We are full time and have traveled across country many times. We have a 45’ motorhome. At the end of 3 days of driving we may need to dump our tanks and get water. We do laundry and cook and take showers. To try to find a dump station at a pilot or loves (or?) even if it is available may not be accessible for us. And it will cost you $5-$10 to dump and try to get water. I would pay $25 to stay overnight and get recharged and dumped no problem. That’s basically giving saying I’m paying $15 to park there. And I can’t be hooked up to electricity and not have to run my generator which will cost me more $ and annoy someone parked next to me at a Walmart or wherever. Also we don’t care about amenities. This would be a no brainer for us. And self service? Sure thing! But not anymore than $25. And I totally agree…there should be these across the country. And have a 3 night max stay? It’s just a stop over place to get recharged not a long term resort
We NEVER need pool, laundry, showers, rec rooms, tennis courts, fire rings, etc.
All we want is a decent size level space, electric, water, sewer, and dumpster for trash. For short term stay of 1 to 2 days just electric is enough.
I agree with Darrel.
I have never needed the frills and will never need the frills. Don’t care about the pool, the showers, the playground or cable TV…. definitely don’t need an escort to my site. Whether it’s the ‘RV Park of the future’ or not, it’s my kind of park!
There are many community parks that charge significantly less and provide the same services.
Turntine sounds like one of the individuals who push local ordinances prohibiting companies like Walmart from allowing overnight stays for the simple reason of self enrichment. His perception of “self serve” is like the self serve at a grocery store! Not much value for me lots for him.
No I think there are better ways to develop a future rest stop as that is what we often need.
Turntine needs to decide if he is building a campground for short term parking or
Long term unless he has a lot of land where he can accommodate both
The fully automated Park sounds a bit expensive for my taste. Cut it in half, and we may talk…
Fees too high? I don’t see many (if any) $20 full hook-up RV sites these days. I like the concept of a simple no hassle automated park. Basic 30 amp would suffice for most travelers. A dump station should be provided for those who need it. For those who don’t carry their own water, a water fill station would be a nice feature. Extending water and sewer to each site is expensive and unnecessary. I also prefer grass or gravel to asphalt. There are many ways to keep it simple and affordable.
I agree. There is a huge need for a pull in and park for overnight system. Resorts are great when you plan on spending time in an area but a low cost one night stop would be really appreciated. Even if there was one water and dump station available for an additiona fee, just the low cost pull in is ok.
Great Idea! A good fit for those who are traveling long distance to a destination for vacation or winter sun and need a break along the way. Perfect for those who travel in an rv from place to place for work. It is not a long term “RV Park” it is a place to park the rv overnight, or a few days, providing the resources to make the amenities of the RV usable and comfortable for its occupants.
As long as a long-term parking agreement is not allowed. I drive around in the area where I live (Central Louisiana) & see so called “RV Park” that is full of long-term, permanent residents with no empty spaces for travelers or vacationers.
While delivering to a resident at one of those RV Parks I asked them why they lived there. I was told that at $350 or even $450 a month, one can’t rent or own a house that cheap since that includes electric, water & sewer. They go nearby I get their propane tanks refilled.
Price aside, I like the idea because finding a place just to pull through while you are getting from Point A to Point B is sometimes tough. You can’t count on finding space at campgrounds and regular RV resorts are pricey for those of us who can’t afford the “big rigs,” plus space can be a problem with them as well. We have a little hard-sided pop-up (like an A-Liner), so we don’t use much electricity and we carry our own water. We don’t need much while travelling to a destination, but it would be great to have a legal place to park and not worry about trying to keep to a specific schedule–which is sometimes hard to do. I do think the trend will be for Walmart to discourage overnighters (too many problems), so something like this might be needed. However, the price is a little steep for us. I understand the initial costs are high, plus the owners may discover they have a need for security to stop vandalism and make sure the “rules” are being followed. Sad but unfortunate part of our society now. So maybe that is part of the higher cost. Right now I would stay at one if I could not find anything else.
My thought is have an RV specific parking area made just like a roadside rest is made on most interstates are. Pay your 20 bucks, roll into a 50 foot parking spot just like you or truck drivers do presently. Make them twice as wide at least for slideouts to be able to be used. A dump station on the way out could be an option. That’s all that is needed other than some lighting for security. I’ve stayed nights just like that where trucks etc are continuously moving for years and to have an area for RVs would be perfect. And probably used. If someone in an RV needs more than that just for a secure place to sleep for the night, then they probably should be at a regular campground. So, do you need a spot for the night quick and easy, or do you need a full service RV park. It’s not rocket science.