OPINION
Dear Dave,
On the matter of RVs and their poor quality maybe we need Japanese manufacturers to take the lead and show North Amwrican[sic] RV builders how to do it right. I spend my summers worrying about what will break next on my late model Jayco. If only Toyota and Honda built RVs. Your thoughts Sir? —Colin, 2020 Jayco 26.7
Dear Colin,
Thanks for the question, as I believe you have opened up a can of worms regarding who can actually build a quality RV, what “quality” is expected and what it actually means!
I don’t mean to be disrespectful; however, I left your question just as it came in, including with the misspelling of “American,” as I believe it makes a point. I get dozens of questions every day, and even though I am not the best spelling expert or even close, it amazes me the amount of butchered words and sentences that I receive. My point is, we rely on texting, AI, and other apps that allow us to shortcut a message, and we don’t take the time to review it before sending it out.
Do we really need the Japanese manufacturers?
When I worked at Winnebago Industries in the Vendor Conformance Department, my job was to investigate quality issues to identify if it was an issue with a vendor component, in-house engineering, or manufacturing assembly. During that time I studied quality control and statistical process control (SPC), and spent a great deal of time reading and researching the quality shift of the Japanese automobile manufacturers.
I remember back in the late 1970s when the first Toyota Corolla came into our small town. It was a bean can on roller skates and basically junk! The Japanese automakers hired Dr. W. Edwards Deming to completely revamp the way they designed, engineered, and built automobiles. He was instrumental in turning their industry into one of the best quality manufacturers today. Dr Deming came back to the United States and eventually worked with all the major manufactures to do the same. He is regarded as the voice of quality and he sparked the quality revolution in the U.S.
Here’s my point about RV quality
My point is, I believe all the major automobile manufacturers in the U.S. are now building quality cars at very high standards. However, the issue, in my opinion, is the automobile industry is a billion times larger (OK, maybe slightly lower) than the RV industry, and it is regulated by the government. We demanded better quality cars, expected all cars to be crash tested, and we had Ralph Nader making sure it happened. Publications like Car & Driver, Consumer Reports, and others kept tabs on the industry. However, there is nothing like that in the RV world.
However, we assume the RV manufacturers are building quality units. Part of the issue, in my opinion, is we just take it for granted when we shop and buy. I conduct an RV Buyers Seminar at shows throughout the country. Too often I see buyers get wrapped up in the floorplan and the WOW factors like full body paint, huge windows, and plank flooring. They don’t spend the time researching the level of quality in furniture, cabinetry, and fit and finish. Then they shop strictly on price, so the RV manufacturers find any way possible to take $$$ out, so their unit sits priced $5K lower across the aisle. And if buyers don’t research, they don’t see the difference. So it is a waste of money and just a constant battle.
An RV is just like a home. You can get one that comes on two trucks completely prefabricated with low-line carpets, particle board cabinets, and thin plywood walls. Now, take that down the road at 65 miles an hour, and also let it get 120 degrees in the summer and 0 degrees in the winter, and not expect to have some rework needed! If you have ever built a home, you accept the fact that there will be some rework or a “punch list” for the drywaller, painter, and other subcontractors. However, we expect an RV to be like a car with no punch list. It is built with virtually the same materials but experiences expansion and contraction worse than any stationary house that is climate-controlled.
What we need to do as consumers
I’m not saying there isn’t room for improvement. What I am saying is that we need to stop just assuming the units are built like automobiles and look closer at the construction, fit and finish, and materials used. And we need to hold the RV manufacturers accountable and not just shop by price and WOW factor.
I also do not feel quality is that much worse than it was in the past, but rather that the numbers and information available is different. Back in 1988, I spent several weeks in a row traveling the country training dealers and the 1989 model years with Mende (composite) Board, foam-filled compartment doors, and new SPC Just In Time (JIT) practices failed miserably. However, there was no internet, no forums, and the industry only sold a fraction of the units being sold recently.
In 2021, RVIA released sales numbers that surpassed 600,000 units! Yes, that means more units in a service center than ever before. However, that does not mean the percentages are higher. What makes it worse is the difficulty of getting parts due to the supply chain issue and the challenge of getting scheduled due to the lack of technicians.
During the 2008-2010 “perfect storm,” as I call it, the industry basically shut down and laid off or lost a large majority of employees, including technicians. Now the industry comes back 10 times larger than before and most technicians moved on to other jobs and industries. Most dealers are desperately trying to find technicians to cover the overload. When buyers have a punch list of items to address and they have to wait 4-6 months or more, the internet explodes and quality is to blame.
What needs to be done to improve RV quality
Here is what I feel needs to be done to improve RV quality. Spend more time looking at the units and understand that purchasing a unit with wood framework, loose fill insulation, particle board, cheap paneling, and 50 gallons of silicone all over the place is not going to hold up like aluminum framework with block insulation and one-piece fiberglass. Not that the stick-and-tin unit is bad, it’s just more like Walmart furniture.
Hold the manufacturers to a higher standard for workmanship and materials. If we stop buying the junk units, eventually they will stop making them.
Hold your dealer to a higher standard of pre-delivery inspection so some of these issues get taken care of before you take that shakedown cruise! Too often, with high volume and limited personnel, units get a quick once-over and the punch list is greater than before. A classic example of how to do it right is General RV, who is now building PDI specific facilities to not only do a thorough job inspecting units, but also educating new owners.
You might also enjoy this from Dave
Where have all the RVs from the ’60s to ’80s gone?
Dear Dave,
What has happened to the majority of the RVs from the ’60s, ’70s and ’80s? Where are they today? —Al
Dave Solberg is a leading expert in the RV industry and the author of the “RV Handbook.”
Read more from Dave here.
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One thing that a buyer can be do before taking possession from the dealer is to hire an independent RV inspector. My dealer had no problem with the inspector coming to the lot and checking everything out. He was VERY thorough. I got a punch list from him and shared it with the dealer. There were minor and major issues (front cap not completely caulked) and I got them all fixed prior to towing it off the lot.
Bang on Dave,having champagne taste on a beer budget will get you every time,the old adage you get what you pay for,in my case 2005 pleasureway excel,yes I payed more up front however still a good runner and satisfied with my purchase.
Quality costs. All too often if you save a dime today it will cost you a dollar later. If you can’t afford someone to inspect the unit you must learn how to inspect it yourself. When you find something that is not right look deeper if they let that pass there will be other things that need attention. Don’t buy until it is made right, the idea that they will fix it before delivery is asking for trouble. The salesman is there to make the sale not guarantee quality. I have seen high dollar units at RV shows that had obvious defects, units that should be in top shape for show. Last, if you can see obvious defects fear what can’t be seen.
You’re description of a pre-fab house may be correct in some cases. However, I toured a factory that builds modular houses. In fact, a neighbor bought one. These are built inside a huge building. All the walls are made using a platform jig that makes sure everything is square and flat. The studs are not toe nailed like on site stick construction. They are nailed from the top and bottom of the floor and top plates. The sheeting is installed while everything is still in the jig, then lifted in place and secured into individual modules and all electrical and plumbing is installed. Everything is done in a climate controlled area. It took less than a week to assemble the house and on the site.
I always thought a “manufactured home” was already earthquake-proof because of the earthquake it had to endure on the way to either the dealer or your lot. Again, depending on the manufacturer and their reputation, you get what you pay for.
What you are calling a “manufactured home” is what used to be called a mobile home. Thy have wheels and axles and a removable tongue.These may not pass all the building codes in a lot of municipalities because of their construction and only allowed in mobile home parks.
I was talking about a modular, that passes all building codes and is built with minimum 2X4 wall studs, 2×8 roof joists and 2X10 floor joists and most are now 2X6 outside walls. Modulars are delivered on flatbed trucks and lifted into place.
I guess I used the wrong word to describe what I was talking about. I’ve watched several “modular” homes being brought in and set up on someone’s property here in town. Yes, I know there is a difference. I just used the wrong term. CRS – 🙂
Camper’s Inn has a PDI facility in Indiana that supposedly inspects units prior to delivery to its growing chain of dealerships. The issues found at the selling dealership during my walk-through made me think either the PDI just looked to see if the tires had air, or were overwhelmed with manufacturing defects and passed a number of units on because dealers were screaming for delivery. This was in early 2022, so maybe things have improved.
Thank you, Dave! Thank you for sharing your informed and experienced perspective on the current state of the RV industry. We tried to do as you suggest in the seven or eight years of gathering all the information I could find to inform our first RV purchase. We did less ahead of our second purchase, partly because we had a more-informed perspective by then. We also had spent 6 years and 48,000 miles traveling in our first RV ahead of buying the second and had much better ideas of what to examine while searching for #2. We also had a better-informed opinion of what was important to us in an RV. Thanks again and safe travels!
Quality is Job 1 !! Even as a Kid learned that phrase. Seems most Mfr’s & Workers have
forgot that. Please do not lay the blame on Consumer’s. See Mfr’s & Dealers having to step up their Performance metric to reach the Bottom Line.
Customer’s Count & Repeat Customer’s means Brand equity & $$$
Just sayin’
Part of the blame has to go on consumers, if they keep buying dog poop they’ll keep getting it. As long as someone is willing to pay for it they keep selling it.
“What we need to do as consumers…” is stop buying this junk until the rip off RV builders get thinned out. The old saying only the strong survive applies here. America is fast becoming a corporate country.
“Punch Lists” today, even from the better manufacturers, are excessive. Many buyers poo-poo 20 or 30 issues saying it’s normal…and it is in recent history.
I purchased a number of new RVs from the late 80’s through 2009 and none of them had a punch “list.” Two of those were Fleetwood and one a Jayco…not top end stuff. Two of those had zero items and the other had only two minor fixes. A new Winnebago Journey DL was flawless as was a new Sunnybrook 5ver. A Newmar Baystar in 2009 was our last new purchase and we traveled in that for 8 years with only three failures.
I believe initial quality has gotten MUCH worse.
Same tired remarks about how the dogs can improve the manufacture of dog food by just not eating it, or complaining.
We have no Japanese RVs in this country to compete. Because of trade restrictions. The few domestic makers with high quality standards can only sell for premium prices to the wealthiest buyers. Everybody else gets dog food.
I am a process/quality engineer and a student of Dr. Deming’s work. I also trained with the Japanese Toyota group. I agree with every point you made regarding quality vs. cost. If RV’s were built even to the quality level of modern automobiles, only the 1% would be able to afford them.
“I don’t mean to be disrespectful; however”
I have “xtreem” respect for your knowledge, but was that comment helpful?
More helpful would be to actually compare Japans RV construction to ours.
Could you be comfortable in a Japanese RV, they’re to small for me!
Wow! calling out somebody for a simple typo to embarrass or discredit them. It’s ripe that author then goes on and uses sloppy, lazy and inaccurate statements like “the automobile industry is a billion times larger” and “industry comes back 10 times larger than before” not seeing the irony in his own slop via the castigation of others. Amazing.
Additionally, cars are of high quality today across OEM’s not because of premium pricing needed to deliver such quality, but because the Japanese built very high quality cars at low cost and forced all other makers to change or die. Even the Amwrican (sic) brands had to step up. 🙂
It is common practice for journalists to write before thinking, we see it here. However when talking about the manufacturing processes you must keep in mind the auto industry uses robot manufacturing to not only reduce employee repetition injuries buy eliminate human mistakes. Every RV is hand built by people assembling parts supplied by Chinese companies. During the pandemic employees were so hard to find they even stopped drug testing these employees, how many pot heads are still assembling every day?
I think Dave was just pointing out that so many people type a question or response and don’t proofread any of it. The news reporters are the worst at not checking their articles.
Quality is out there. Leisure Travel, Pleasure Way, Luxe, Intech, Renegade etc.
Stop buying from the Big 3 and you’ll see some changes. Until then. It’s a Sucker’s Bet.
RV Manufacturer’s need to be Legislated into Quality. Loss of Money is a great Teacher!
Don’t need more govt intervention — if they were to intervene than you can kiss new RV’s goodbye. The moment safety/crash standards are imposed the industry will implode and will only be for the top 2% to afford, all other brands will go poof! Be careful what you wish for or the law of unintended consequences may land on you like a ton of bricks.
Legislation is not going to happen due to a few things, RV’s are not considered essential transportation, it’s an option, it was a big step when they included seatbelts for passengers, the lower priced units don’t provide safety attachment points for child seats. RVIA greases enough Indiana legislators pockets each year to keep the government legislation out. As you stated, get high enough off your hip pocket and you get quality. I’m presently looking at quality used units because I can’t afford new.
Don’t forget Dr. Joseph Juran. He along with Deming transformed Japanese manufacturing practices because American manufacturers wouldn’t listen to them. I took a course at Juran’s Institute years ago. They both taught quality can’t be inspected in. It’s cheaper to build it right the first time than fix it later. I worked in the aircraft manufacturing industry in various capacities for 20 years. I realize there’s a difference in “quality levels” between an aircraft and an RV, however with proper training of technicians and proper quality practices/systems RV’s would not be the way they are today.
Looks like it’s all on the consumer to find quality products. Even though that consumer plunks down $30,000 – $50,000 or more, they should expect shoddy manufacturing and a poorly made product because that’s just the way it is. SMH
Quit buying new, the quality will improve within 2 years, but the price will increase when they take the time to build with quality.
I don’t think even if the Japanese would start selling quality here, that the US RV makers would follow.
The auto industry is completely different. Billions of dollars on the line. RV sales are drop in the bucket. Just look at all the Chinese junk an Amazon. People buy it instead of supporting American manufacturers to save few dollars. Then complain about the quality.
Can you imagine the cost of a RV being shipped here from Japan? The average RV would take up 3-5 times the room an import car uses on a car transport ship.
Most of the Japanese RV’s I’ve seen would fit in the garage of American toy haulers. Lol
A very thoughtful answer, I remember the “recycled beer cans” the Japanese sent here in the ‘60’s. They made American cars look good! It took 25 years for American manufactures to up the quality. The auto industry uses robots to assemble the exact same parts the exact same way for thousands of exactly alike models. Each RV is being assembled by hand using parts supplied by Chinese companies. That’s the only thing that may be just like the last one. I’m sure the pandemic had much to do with lack of quality when some manufacturers resorted to hiring people without doing a drug screen. How many of those people are still on the assembly line? The answer, quit buying new. Quality will improve!
Your comment brings up a good point. If a person is uncomfortable purchasing an automobile built in China, why are people so willing to purchase an RV where every major component (outside of the chassis and interior/exterior walls) are manufactured in China?
This will NEVER happen (obviously), but the best way to get the RV manufacturers’ attention to their pooly built RVs is to set a purchasing moratorium by ALL consumers. ZERO SALES for 6 months across ALL dealerships… let that sink in and see how it resonates with demanding better quality.
And as I said above… it just won’t happen, but it certainly would be nice…